How to Merge the Brand Experience with Trust - Girish Joshi

Connor (00:00.182) loving your insights. like, let's not, you know, let's capture them. Yeah. Girish Joshi (00:02.909) Let's get this on tape. Justin Aronstein (00:04.819) Yeah, absolutely. Connor is like, hey, we need that. But one, thank you for that compliment. I'm actually really bad at taking compliments. I think you're supposed to say thank you. No one ever taught me how to take a compliment. So thank you. Yeah, and all those things that I write about are like real battle scars. they're, made a joke, have one of the summons coming, I stopped going to therapy and this is my therapy for 2025. Connor (00:34.35) You Girish Joshi (00:36.694) Can I tell you guys, I hope you're recording this, I this is a fun story. you know, long before I got into e-commerce, went to therapy and it's just a good idea and so I got a lot out of it. Girish Joshi (00:51.592) Once I started being in like a PNL owner role with e-commerce, I noticed my therapist's eyebrows arching a little more whenever I happened to be talking about work. It's like, what's going on here? And then at least at my current role, I was still making time for therapy when I was at work. so I'd like carve out an hour in the... Justin Aronstein (01:01.049) huh. Girish Joshi (01:14.706) a week to do it. And one morning, which was a pretty typical e-commerce morning, it was just like, you know, things were on fire and like revenue this and conversion that. And it was time for my call. And I was just like, I can no longer do this therapy. This is getting in the way, bro. The relationship is over. Justin Aronstein (01:16.627) huh. Justin Aronstein (01:24.541) Mm-hmm. Justin Aronstein (01:28.979) Hahahaha! Connor (01:34.83) Hehehehehe Girish Joshi (01:39.49) And it was, and we've been, you know, I even I suppose I could reach out to him. was 10 years we were doing therapy together. It just wasn't, I don't know, there is a fight or flight response that is happening at work in e-commerce that isn't that, it doesn't orchestrate well with self-reflection. You know, like, not to say that either of those are bad or good things, it's just like, I got some stuff to do right now. Connor (02:06.222) Hmm. Justin Aronstein (02:14.277) Yeah, and of course it doesn't go with self-reflection because, all right, so you had a goal for the week. Well, Monday, you're reviewing how you did last week, and then you're fighting for that goal for next week or on the month. And maybe the period between December 25th and January 1st, you get a break. But even when you're on vacation, those numbers are still coming in, and you're still looking at them. And... Girish Joshi (02:38.922) That's right. This is correct. So I think to myself of, I can't, it was some major holiday and because you know, also when I'm on vacation or there is a major holiday, this is almost by definition an incredibly important time in e-commerce. Justin Aronstein (03:00.028) Yeah. Girish Joshi (03:01.602) And so I'm constantly checking the numbers. Like if the hourly sales aren't good, like I don't like my appetizer anymore. I remember I was like on the beach with someone while I was checking my numbers and they just looked at me like I was a monster and they were correct. And they're like, don't you think you ought to put this down now? Like you're not that important. That's actually all there's nothing that I can't argue with that on any level. Like even there's this culture to of the like the war room call, which I don't love, like kind of using the militaristic language around everything. But we're going to be on 24 seven, which we, which you do need to be because you can't waste time in a business that is 24 seven, but not everyone is actually useful all of the time and, kind of being in it and just sort of monitoring the, that traffic and chatter every second of the day. It's like, it's bad for your personal, it's bad for your decision-making too. you start getting hyper-focused on the next revenue bump or something. Connor (04:16.974) Yeah, we said this just before the call started recording, a lot of this job feels like gambling, I think, that from our perspective, there's times where you're just looking at the numbers and you're like, I'm up, and then you come back in a week and you're like, I'm down. I think people get addicted to that. I personally do, especially when we do lot of A-B testing. I find myself just, you know how they make a joke that when you're standing at a party and you wanna look busy, you just open the weather app? That's kinda what I do, but with the numbers, you know? Justin Aronstein (04:17.274) You do so. Connor (04:46.594) You're sitting around trying to look busy and it's like, well, I might as well just check on how everything's doing, you know? And then, Girish Joshi (04:51.614) I'm total actually one of the you know, I mean I've been in this been in this game for a little while but but one of the things I look for in myself is the more frequently I check the numbers I know that I'm not thinking properly. If I'm once I start getting beyond checking the numbers twice a day which and sometimes and there are times I'm checking it 11 to 20 times a day but once I get beyond checking it twice a day I'm not living in the creativity and purpose that it takes to really transform the business. Connor (05:30.254) I love that. Justin Aronstein (05:32.069) And what is the creativity and purpose that it takes to transform the business? Connor (05:36.494) I you were gonna ask that. Girish Joshi (05:38.292) So this is the direct-to-consumer magic and Amazon innovation that we've all known and love, that is put your customer experience first. So one of the things that I think I'm gifted with is being tremendously irritable. Like, everything pisses me off. And that means that I... Justin Aronstein (05:59.075) huh. Girish Joshi (06:03.444) Like just sort of trying to deal with my own frustrations is like a great way for me to empathize with my customer. They're often like less demanding than I am. And so that creativity, like it begins with, you know, trying to figure out the biggest problems that your customer is facing to solve, try to think out of them. So here's another thing. This is a separate topic. I think you have to be an idea factory because ultimately you just don't know what's going to work. And if you were serious about that, most people start running out of ideas that are novel to themselves after like five or six. It is like very difficult to continually generate a list of things that like, this is, this is useful. Most people's critic will kick in and that process of trusting yourself, of continuing to try to pull ideas from disparate areas, of even just copying others, that takes time. if you're just sort of in fantasy land around your year over year increase, that's time wasted when you should be trying to be creative. Connor (07:26.488) Totally agree. Yeah. Justin Aronstein (07:27.023) Love that. So, I mean, I've had this big thing going on in my mind that I'm, this is controversial, but I'm pretty anti-framework. I actually don't, I don't like frameworks because I think they hamper creative thinking. But there's one framework that I keep coming back to, and that is like, always keep experimenting on something else. Always find that next thing. Whether it's an A-B test, not necessarily, but like, marketing is moving so fast. Girish Joshi (07:37.622) Me too. Justin Aronstein (07:56.443) The amount of change that you've experienced in past three years of e-commerce is extreme, and the next three years are gonna be even more extreme with AI and the change of the world dynamics. And the only thing that I can think of is you just have to try new things faster. Girish Joshi (08:14.4) I like that. guess the reason I'm a little skeptical is that doesn't sound like a framework so much as like a, you know, like a coda or like an outlook. Yeah. Justin Aronstein (08:23.679) Sure. Agreed. I guess, I don't have a framework. Agreed. Girish Joshi (08:28.194) Yeah, but it's a good outlook. And I'm not against outlooks. In fact, I'm really strongly in favor of outlooks, but I am. I do look a little askance at frameworks. part because, so what the framework can be good at is creating breath in your thinking. So generally it's like classifying your thinking into different areas and maybe there's an area that just hasn't occurred to you so it kind of gets you into that breath. But what the framework tends to not do is it tends to under emphasize the... Like I said, I'm an irritable person. Inside of me, there's this intuition that is like very powerful. And the framework tends to sort of like sidestep that a little bit. And that's why I don't love the framework. It tends to make all things look equally important. And some things tend to be dramatically more important. And that scale matters. I hope that wasn't too, you feel it. Justin Aronstein (09:12.477) Mm-hmm. Justin Aronstein (09:23.859) How do you know what's dramatically more important? No, no, no, that's amazing. You feel it. Girish Joshi (09:28.096) You feel it. Yeah. So this is one of the... I think when I'm having this interview, I might be coming off as like this kind of new age guy. Like I intuit what is correct, Justin. That's how I do it. But just in my defense, I'm trained as a physicist. I'm pretty good at math. I love chess. I'm a very analytical dude. I got the receipts on the analysis. There's another lesson I've learned in e-commerce. I'm getting to your point. The other lesson that I've learned is you may try a million things, but there's going to be one thing. that's subtly, is dramatically better than everything else. And this is what we're always looking for. And so therefore, when I say that you can feel it, what I'm trying to do is as quickly as possible, my compass to that thing that starts just totally obliterating the sensors. And that I feel inside of me, like, my God, as I'm evaluating my own ideas, I start saying to myself, does this make me go, wow? Does this make me go, oh, oh, whatever. Oh, fuck. that's where I want to start. By the way, you had a post on this subject. You were talking about getting your welcome offer to the right level. And this is precisely the thing. There's a A. there is a offer that starts behaving non-linearly. And in your post, you talked about it being a 20 % offer. That's, the way, exactly my experience. So that's the magic number. And then secondly, when it works, it works in such a cartoonishly large way that no one can even fathom that it worked that well. And I can give you countless examples like this. And this is... Justin Aronstein (11:16.839) You Girish Joshi (11:34.038) When we talk about ideating and experimenting and kind of doing everything, what we are ultimately after is identifying as many of those moments as possible, those moments that completely break our instrumentation. That make sense? I hope so. Justin Aronstein (11:47.119) Yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely right. A lot of experimentation, especially on site, is like, 1%, 2%, maybe 3%, you're celebrating. But the things that move a business that you can see in the numbers is that 20%. And how do you find that 20 %? At a minimum, yeah. Exactly. Girish Joshi (12:05.698) At a minimum, at a minimum that 20%. Yeah, and it's really that 50 to 100%. Right, that's what you're looking for. Justin Aronstein (12:13.651) And as humans, don't know what that's gonna be, and it's always bigger than we anticipate. Every time. So, do you have a process to find it? I hear the intuition. Is there things that you go to that help you more often than not? How do you get there? Girish Joshi (12:20.994) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Girish Joshi (12:36.99) I mean, this is the... So let me start with, in the ideation phase, I'd really try to get at something that bothers me. And then when it bothers me, you have to take it a little further because while you may empathize with that moment, that experience that it bothers you, you have to start taking your imagination in different places to build something a little more cohesive. So do that as many times as possible and get a lot of ideas. So this is kind of in the ideation phase. Once we get to... Once we get to implementation, here's the other thing. go big first and then hit the brakes. So here's the thing. So what you are looking for is a jump in your instruments. Your instruments are telling you how the thing is going. You could be measuring all sorts of stuff. If you haven't hit the point where the instrument blips up, Justin Aronstein (13:26.717) Yeah, love that. Girish Joshi (13:43.158) you're going to think it's not effective. you need to sort of set the, you kind of need to set the volume control such that you get a big blip and then sort of dial it back until you find that point where, okay, now it doesn't matter anymore. And so this is a very crucial point. that now, now depending upon how you've got buy-in for your idea, people are going to tell you to go the other way around. They're going to tell you start small and then see when it hits. And this is a recipe for complete and utter failure. will your idea fail? But your ideation process is going to start failing. So don't do that. so then there's some other ways to attack this, which I guess I'll tell you about now. People are going. Justin Aronstein (14:17.779) Yeah. Girish Joshi (14:35.265) So people only go big when they think it doesn't matter at all. Like they think there's like no consequence to it. The more the others think that there is a consequence to a thing, the more they suddenly want to get really, really careful. So there is a huge advantage, not to you not advocating for your ideas, but letting others think that they are not good. Like it's actually helpful to you as long as they're willing to experiment with you. That's all you need. As if they're willing to experiment with you, you've got all the buying you need. Now you do not want them. You don't want them to think it's good until after the fact up until and that's, that's, it's really, really helpful. So, you know, Justin Aronstein (15:19.677) That's very counterintuitive. Girish Joshi (15:21.472) yeah i'll give you i can give you a few examples i need to be a little careful here so there's some things about my existing strategy i don't want to give away so here's here's one of my favorite metrics and i just call it attach rate so whether whenever you are from a value strategy One of the things that everyone in e-commerce runs into is like, cannot compete on price. Okay, great. You can't compete on price for a whole bunch of reasons why not. But what you can do is work in complimentary. and substitute products. In complementary and substitute products, you can do lots of different things in price. So complementary products means I'm going to bundle products together, or I'm going to bundle services together. particularly when you get into services, you can be infinitely creative on what exactly constitutes a service. At the end of the day, a service is a checkbox. It's literally somebody just opting in. And if you can come up with things that people want to click a checkbox on, no matter what the price or non-prices associated with that, you have found something really special and you can be very creative there. So, you click that checkbox or you add that product to the cart, this is what I'm talking about with attach rate. And so, when I'm looking for value, what I'm looking for is, first of all, if something... currently has a low attach rate. That means a customer doesn't want to value it. And the very first thing I'm looking for is increase the attach rate. What do I need to do to make this thing appealing enough for that attach rate to pop? And this is the starting place for now starting to look for profitability and conversion improvements. And so this is basically the process. And you can... Justin Aronstein (17:12.541) Thank Justin Aronstein (17:19.964) Yeah. Girish Joshi (17:27.034) I think thinking of it as generally as it is a checkbox is the right way to do it because now you can go anywhere. You're not like, I'm not like trying to sell you the whatever widget you sell. There is some other widget that nobody wants and don't try to bundle those two things together. Like this is not helpful to anyone. And, but if you think of it as a checkbox, like, what is, would you like me to call you to talk about Justin Aronstein (17:46.395) Yeah. Yeah. Girish Joshi (17:56.93) how much you hate my guts. Like this, this is how we're getting creative. Justin Aronstein (18:04.177) Yeah, so that attach rate and especially with services, it's an incredible insight. And obviously, LG, you're doing this with electronics and we don't even get an exact strategy of the services, but do you think this applies to any business? Is this something that Kohl's, for example, that's been struggling 11 quarters in a row could apply or some small fashion retailer could also apply? Or is this specific for electronics in your eyes? Girish Joshi (18:35.266) I think it would be pretty arrogant for me to say that it applies to everybody, so that's my inclination. Let me say the following. Justin Aronstein (18:42.757) Yeah. Girish Joshi (18:49.118) I'm fortunate to be operating in businesses that already have scale. So when you already have scale, you can play a little looser with margin. Whether that's contribution margin or your acquisition costs, you can play a lot looser there. So that's a privilege I have. Also, my products have elaborate, well-established supply chains. And I work in an industry that's highly consolidated. This gives me... Justin Aronstein (18:55.143) Mm-hmm. Girish Joshi (19:18.176) gives me room to make mistakes that I don't know if a fashion retailer can make. And so I do think it applies. then the second thing is really around trust, which I hope we can talk more about. I'm being a little absurd when I say it's a check mark, right? But if one were to do that to a really large extreme, customers would quickly perceive what you're doing and being like, I don't like this, stop taking advantage of me. And the degree to which your product is not trusted, you really cannot play these kinds of games. while the goal of... creating a service bundle is ultimately to deliver more value to your customer. If your customer doesn't think that you can be trusted, don't be very, very careful with that. In fact, mean, so I can talk about this. It's sort of pretty evident on our products. My industry, the appliance industry, the electronics industry has this reputation of not being, not always being the highest quality. I remember people talking to me about this notion of planned obsolescence. I think that my thing breaks because that's so they can get me to buy another one. And let me tell you, having been in these companies for a while, nothing is planned. If it's getting obsolete, it happened by accident. But that's like a notion of quality that's really unfortunate. so the LG brand is really trying to build this notion of reliability around the products. It's absolutely true. And we're working really hard with the products. But what we found is that Justin Aronstein (20:41.948) Yeah. Girish Joshi (21:02.262) Because I think the industry as a whole, this kind of notion of a... reliability was tarnished, when we offered a warranty, it wasn't nearly as effective as a third party warranty. And I was constantly asked, why is this? Explain this to me, Garish. And I'm like, I don't know why. I just know for some reason, if it's coming from someone else, it has a much bigger impact. so the attached rate on those warranties is something I absolutely played with. And to go all the way back to what your actual question was, when I'm trying to innovate, Justin Aronstein (21:16.316) Girish Joshi (21:38.272) and figure out attach rates. Sometimes I look for something where the attach rate is low, like the warranties. The attach rates really weren't where they should be. And this indicates that there's value to be found. And now we can start playing around with different things to drive that value. Justin Aronstein (21:54.109) That makes sense. So we're actually gonna get back to the check-in a little more. And as an e-comm director, it's impossible to be great at everything. You're probably really good at some things. What are some of your strengths? But also, maybe more interestingly, what do you have to rely on others for where it isn't a strength? Girish Joshi (22:14.786) I think my biggest strength is also my biggest weakness. So I think my biggest strength is that I'm really in tune with... I can imagine what a correct answer should be. And I don't feel super constrained about what my current situation is, what the circumstances are for me to imagine what good looks like in any case, not just at work in any situation. And then when I'm not in that space, I'm a little agitated by it. It bothers me. And this is a strength because it helps me be creative. It helps me sort of try to push in the direction of what I think good looks like. So that is without question the strength. That's where I think my innovation comes from. But it's for sure a weakness. part of that is like for me, this discomfort is absolutely visceral. like I, I'm like, gosh, this isn't the right answer. I, I physically feel it. I I'm feeling it now as I describe it to you. And that I think is really uncomfortable for other people to be around and, it upsets them. And I, I'm, you know, I'm like this really squishy, empathetic dude outside of work and But inside of work, they kind of feel this agitation for me. And so often I have to rely on other people to help me soften the message to get some better collaboration. I mean, I don't want to sell myself short. I can get some buy-in on my thinking. not... Girish Joshi (23:54.42) I'm completely inept at this, but I get a ton out of having some diplomats on my side that can do something that I'm not so good at. Connor (24:10.67) Interesting. Hearing you say that kind of makes me think about what you were talking about with attach rates and kind of the way that you look at this business. How important do you think like telling a story is for a brand or for building trust, I guess? And it sounds to me like that's something that maybe you might rely on other people for. Do you feel like that's something that comes up often? Is that a really key? skillset to have you think or a thing for these brands to be doing or do you feel like that's maybe in 2025 not as important anymore? Girish Joshi (24:48.322) I'm definitely not that good at it. So in that sense, for sure, I rely on others. In fact, I think I'm hilariously bad at it. What I find interesting is weird and not interesting to other people. Connor (25:04.95) Interesting. Justin Aronstein (25:06.395) You Girish Joshi (25:13.044) I don't know. One of my sort of gut instincts is that there tends to be large reactions quickly. And so my patience for a long narrative is thin. I don't know how universal that is. That being said, there is something around trust that can only be created through a long narrative. and it's not lost on me but it's just not it's not my nature and i also kind of think it can't be controlled Perhaps I'm being vague here, but whether you tell a story or not, a story is being told. That's my point. And the long story that is being told is not really in your control. It's fundamentally something that's sort of experienced over time. Yeah. I find it often a little presumptuous for people to try to tell a story without being interesting. And that's kind of what I see a lot of in kind of corporate storytelling, that it's not inherently interesting. so that's kind of... Justin Aronstein (26:22.493) Mm-hmm. Girish Joshi (26:40.756) I think it depends on what you're selling. Do you want me to tell you a story about refrigerators? Connor (26:47.159) Do you feel like customers benefit from that kind of a pitch or that kind of a tactic? they? Girish Joshi (26:52.972) We feel like customers would benefit from anyone who dared tell them a story about refrigerators being sent to a swamp somewhere. Like, how dare you waste my time with such a ridiculous thing? I mean, I guess if I sat here, I could probably craft a... I'm sorry. The most interesting story about refrigerators is Dexter. And okay, now, I think that's the wrong story to sell. Connor (27:01.464) Yeah. Justin Aronstein (27:02.875) You Connor (27:06.392) Yeah. Justin Aronstein (27:12.915) You Connor (27:12.92) I mean, I agree with you because I think... Justin Aronstein (27:16.115) You Girish Joshi (27:22.774) to tell or to sell. Connor (27:22.966) Interesting. Yeah. I mean, think it depends on the products and the brands. think with refrigerators, know, there's a thing there, there's an element of that, that, you know, I don't need to know the lifestyle that goes with the refrigerator most of the time, I would think. Girish Joshi (27:37.442) I love what you just said here. Now, this I'm with you on. So there are things, and maybe this is the insight, because the story is never, if it's not about the product, absolutely there's an interesting story to tell. So there's an interesting story to tell with the LG company. In fact, anyone who joins the company is going to hear this story right away of a company of a nation in the ashes of war rising up and recreating itself as a manufacturer of products that build trust around the world very, very quickly. And this is something that everyone at our company learns about and is super proud of. And in fact, being part of that, often feel like I'm part of people who love their products but I'm part of people who love their country. And this is a story that LG sort of doesn't tell globally but is very much present in the culture. And yeah, that concept for sure has this value in it. I think it is valuable in sales. It's just, it's a Yeah, maybe. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm just not good at this. I think it's there. I think it's there. I probably should have dialed into it more. Connor (28:56.76) Well, yeah, it's an interesting topic and I think it changes for everybody. But it's just something we see a lot with our various, you know, we work in so many different industries, but we've, often found that you, you, you sell the story, you don't necessarily always sell the product, but there are so many cases where that just doesn't apply at all. And for me, I would think refrigerators may be one of those, but you know, I could, I could see myself getting sold on a good story about refrigerators. So I see the opportunity, but yeah. Girish Joshi (29:25.378) I like this. haven't thought about this much. Like I said, don't know if I'm... Yeah. I don't know. Good story, for sure. Sorry. You've really got me thinking about this topic. I think it's interesting. Connor (29:38.082) Yeah, no worries. Justin Aronstein (29:38.611) Two pieces of unsolicited advice on storytelling. Take a storytelling class. I took just one six week class on storytelling and at the end you get up in front of an audience and tell a story. It has made me a better thinker of how people get interested in something and what you have to say. To like get someone interested in something for five minutes is really hard. And how do you... Girish Joshi (29:42.635) Yeah. Justin Aronstein (30:03.951) keep their interest. My mind was opened in like how do you build upon a story? Super interesting. And also like you then have to do work. Go ahead. Connor (30:13.472) Yeah, it's like what you're saying when you're having to that idea, even just internally, understanding these components of a story that you're essentially giving people puzzle pieces and you're letting them put the puzzle together. You already have an idea of what it's gonna be, but you're giving them those hints that they need to put it all together. And then when they've put that piece together, they feel a part of what you're pitching. They feel like they have ownership of it in some sense. And it allows, I think in a lot of ways, it allows people to connect, to trust, whether you're just trying to pitch a new feature to your development team or you're trying to sell people on, you know, a smart fridge or something. There's just so many different. Girish Joshi (30:53.602) I love where you guys are going. I think I've learned something today. I will take that story time class. And Connor, I particularly like what you're saying around mystery. That they get to solve the mystery. I love that a lot. Justin Aronstein (31:04.519) Yeah. Connor (31:06.67) Yes, that's exactly right. Yeah, I love that. Cool. Justin Aronstein (31:10.911) And then two, use AI to turn what you're saying into the most classic story, the hero's journey from Joseph Campbell. he basically, Joseph Campbell says like every story from ancient myths to Star Wars is one story. If you ever just like, hey, how do I turn this into a story? Put your bullet points into there and say, hey, turn this into Joseph Campbell for me, his hero's journey, and it will do it. Connor (31:18.627) Yeah. Girish Joshi (31:38.38) Let me give that a shot. So Justin, I was a boy, played Dungeons and Dragons. And so me and, that I'm not a boy, my old boyhood friends, got together and we were like, hey, I wonder if Chat GPT can be the Dungeon Master and will play, it'll be the Dungeon Master. And it's terrible at that. Justin Aronstein (31:45.67) Okay, yeah. Justin Aronstein (32:00.635) Haha. Justin Aronstein (32:04.883) You Girish Joshi (32:06.152) It's so astonishingly bad that we just end up being our own dungeon masters. like, yeah, I mean, to a degree that occurs, but it's just like, yeah, let me try it, Justin. I want to try using AI. I'm all for it. Justin Aronstein (32:12.242) Heh! Connor (32:22.712) I love that idea though. We, yeah, also played Dungeons and Dragons with my friends and my family as well, actually. And I mean, Judge BT, it's getting there. It's almost to a point I think it can be a good Dungeon Master, but you don't realize how hard it is to be a good Dungeon Master until you see the AI fail at it, you know? So. Girish Joshi (32:23.84) Yeah. Girish Joshi (32:37.012) Exactly. So I used to be a, I hope we don't, I'm just riffing. I'm enjoying this conversation. you take it, take me back to e-commerce when it's time. But I used to, I used to like a tutor, be a GMAT tutor. they had the Manhattan GMAT would teach the tutors how to teach. And someone described, Justin Aronstein (32:45.792) No, that's the whole goal. Yeah. Connor (32:47.852) Wolf's owner back in, yeah. Girish Joshi (33:06.326) you know, taking a classroom through learning a concept as you have your students, are like your soldiers who are parachuted into the battlefield. And they all land at slightly different spots. But they have a plan that's going to get them to coordinate and kind of like take the hill. And this is how I feel about being a dungeon master. that a dungeon master to a large extent is the one with that plan who who like all the different people are kind of in different places but somehow they slightly coordinate them to like tell this like cohesive cohesive story together and that is fun that's why i like this game i told you we going to talk about e-commerce this is Connor (33:54.67) I mean that is essentially managing an e-commerce team in so many different ways is just being a good dungeon master. You know, it's telling that story Yeah, putting people in the right places Girish Joshi (34:02.112) I'm a very poor Dungeon Master then. There's another method. There's another method. Another method is... Anyway, I think I'm very fortunate to have people who put up with the weaknesses of my storytelling. Justin Aronstein (34:22.547) Go ahead on that other method. You were holding yourself back. I want to hear what you were actually thinking. Girish Joshi (34:30.274) I think that for my general experiences in e-commerce is that people, feel like unwilling to sort of follow a direction. And there's a lot of reasons for it, but the, but the principal reason for it is they have been punished. Like they've been punished for taking risks. And so one of the, the very first thing that you can do for any e-commerce team is like have a very clear point of view and go after it. and say, do not worry my friends, it's on me. I will take all the blame. so this is, I mean, this is like a super risky approach, because if you're wrong, it will be you and you will take all the blame. So you ought to be right about what you're talking about. But I have a feeling that most seasoned e-comm directors actually do know what's right. Like you can very quickly diagnose your... kits and then just just own it. So that's my other way Justin. My other way is to lead from the front as opposed to the DM who's sort of leading from Justin Aronstein (35:39.591) Yeah, yeah. And that takes vision. Connor (35:40.078) moment. Girish Joshi (35:44.938) Yeah, vision helps. But actually, more than anything, it takes conviction. Girish Joshi (35:59.174) There's a lot of things that will just are just like absolute murder to creativity. So one of them is one of them is too much, too much like punishment for mistakes. the one that is like much more insidious is consensus. And when you have like a group of people who like, let's all agree before we take an action. And, and the toughest thing to do, especially if you're like a remotely, like not a psychopath. is to be like, we're going this way because I say so. that, and we might get a little friction from that at first, but pretty quickly, you'll actually get people who like just appreciate it, especially if it's not always because you say so. Like, you know, just has to be that way sometimes. Connor (36:47.846) I love that idea. think something people struggle with in your position is knowing like, when do you trust your gut over the data or the team's consensus? When do you know, or when do you like, maybe even just personally, when do you feel like, you know, I hear what y'all are saying, I hear what the data saying, but I feel this and I know this is the right direction. You know, is that something you've done in the past, maybe have an example of that, or is it maybe a moment? Girish Joshi (37:14.754) Justin has a post on this and so I think that when it comes to this there are three things. So the first thing that we're talking about right now is a very strong personal intuition. And my belief is you must start there. But there are two other things that you need. One of them are anecdotes that those anecdotes can be coming from your team. Those are other people's opinions, I guess. I guess that's hilarious that I think other people's opinions are just anecdotes, but whatever. And then thirdly, you have data. When all of those things are in agreement, you know you're onto something, right? We all agree, and the data agrees. But what happens when they're not in agreement? They should come into agreement. And so the one that ends up being Connor (37:45.368) you Girish Joshi (38:04.416) that ends up being like your best gauge is the anecdote. So like when other people think the thing, I think you really, we really ought to pay attention. And so then the next thing we can start bringing into our minds is like, well, why, why isn't that how I feel? Why don't I agree with you? And if you can't reconcile that, there's something to take a pretty good look at. So like I said, my taste is a little weird. And so I often like a thing that other people are like, grease that is ugly. Don't I don't like it. And you know what? I think that I just, I think they're probably, you know, maybe, maybe so. Right. And so I try to trust them then, but then we get into the data and this is where everybody makes the big mistake. Cause you know, the thing is like, I'm uncertain. So then what? So In general, when the data doesn't agree with either the anecdote or your personal intuition, it is almost always true that there is something wrong with the metric or the instrument. And you need to adjust the metric and the instrument. And that's so crucial. And you can't start with the data because you never know what's going on with the metric and the instrument. You have to start with one or the other. The other thing that I might mention, particularly around anecdote, is the anecdote Justin Aronstein (39:08.413) Yeah. Girish Joshi (39:25.102) is insufficiently nuanced and insufficiently future centric. So when I was talking a little bit about how I relate to my own strong feelings about things, I mentioned I have to look beyond the existing problem. And I can do that because I'm just thinking about how I feel. It's easy to empathize with myself. But I'm glad you like that. you. But that's important because often you need to kind go into like a second or third level about what's going on. And when you're hearing that anecdote from your customer or your team members, they may have a harder time getting there. And the other issue is the imagination of what's possible. So at a certain point, some people can only see the solutions that are in front of them. They don't, and this is, think, I was gonna say the number one thing that can kinda hurt e-commerce teams is getting burned. The second thing is an inability to think sufficiently big. And I'm not just talking about the 100, 300, 600 % year-over-year growth numbers. I'm talking about as people we are going to transform about what we want. The reality itself will bend. That suddenly you can get something delivered in a day or in an hour that are of what desire is itself is constantly changing. And if that sounds far-fetched, I would just point us to a mere 14 years ago before we even had iPhones. And the notion that you no longer needed to remember anything, which is easy to accept now, would be ludicrous then. there's a kind of really big thinking that somebody... needs to feel like they've been given permission to have. And it's not that we're not capable of this. Most people have been told, stop doing that. It's not appreciated in this room. And that's a shame. There's a huge value in that. It's appreciated in my room. Connor (41:41.506) Yeah. I love that. That's a great answer. Justin Aronstein (41:43.891) I love that. I love the need for big thinking. It's hard to do. It's hard to train. Like how do you get someone to really open that up and do that. yeah, go ahead. Girish Joshi (41:59.522) Actually, Justin, it's one of my interview questions. So... Yeah, I mean, so, so, that's an Amazon principle. Think big. And so the one of my interview questions, I usually will ask somebody, tell me about your favorite company. They always have one. Tell me about like what makes them your favorite and why they're the most innovative. They usually have one. And then I'll, I'll say, okay, whatever context I'm in, I'm like, I want you to, to do all of this, to, to, have, to, to do the same kind of thing at our company. You have no constraints whatsoever. Anything you want, we can make happen. What would you do? And this is this is I'd like to do this as an interview not be it's not because Because the question here is not to see like what they come up with The question here is to see if I am able to unlock inside of them I'm trying to give them the permission now in a completely theoretical way you have the permission to dream What do you do with it? And some people just simply cannot step into the void and others others can you know? Justin Aronstein (42:52.114) Yeah. Justin Aronstein (43:01.704) Yeah. Girish Joshi (43:03.688) So that's how we start. I think that you're right, it does take practice, but the practice is taking the step into the unknown. Connor (43:19.022) Yeah, I love that. That's honestly, if we have a good clip here, I think that's one of them. That's a great. Justin Aronstein (43:19.025) Yeah, yeah. Justin Aronstein (43:24.115) you Justin Aronstein (43:28.231) That's awesome, I got, we have a couple more questions. Do you have a hard stop at the bottom of the hour? I just wanna make sure that we're cognizant of time. Yeah, take your time, take a breath. This is going amazing, you're doing just absolutely amazing. I could not imagine a better podcast episode. So I really appreciate all the insights that you're bringing and the focus and attention you're bringing to this. Girish Joshi (43:33.556) No, I'm having, hold on one second, let me check my, am I allowed to stand up? Girish Joshi (43:50.658) I have a I actually have a ton of time. So yeah, for sure. Connor (43:51.224) Yeah, double that. Justin Aronstein (43:56.581) Okay, awesome, so probably just maybe 10, 15 more minutes. I think you have really brought to the forefront this need for conviction in your ideas and the pain points you're seeing of your customer. Has that ever burnt you? Has that ever brought about a failure? Or has it always brought about success? Girish Joshi (44:26.634) I don't think anyone fails when they're thinking about others. so to the extent that I've tried to turn my imagination to customers, don't think I've ever, I can never say I've failed in that endeavor. But I do think... Justin Aronstein (44:44.901) Awesome. Girish Joshi (44:47.734) that the process of doing this and the process of the conviction can sometimes have made me maybe self-centered and perhaps deaf to other ideas and other ways of thinking. And in that sense, there have been horrible failures. Girish Joshi (45:16.31) Yeah, so in that sense, yes, for sure. And I think another. Girish Joshi (45:23.124) Another thing to think about that. So I really love the Amazon principles and and think big is one of them that we're sort of talking about here and says is customer being obsessed with customer. I don't know if this is an Amazon principle, but it's something I heard from Jeff Bezos around thinking in terms of 10,000 years or really long time scales. And I can't say that I do that. Justin Aronstein (45:48.359) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Girish Joshi (45:51.73) And to the degree that I do, I rarely think beyond like a two or three year time scale. Once you start thinking in a 10, 20 year time scale, I think that your decisions really change and they change even more when the time scale gets bigger and bigger than that. I don't. Justin Aronstein (45:58.739) you Girish Joshi (46:13.698) I can't say that I failed because I haven't lived long enough to see it, but I can tell you for sure I'm not thinking that way and I doubt that I'm making the right decision in that context. A lot of the stuff that I do to help customers is about improving price or value, right? But what I'm not thinking about is industry structure. Justin Aronstein (46:30.631) Mm-hmm. Girish Joshi (46:34.134) And those things happen on different timescales. Value thing is happening in the minute to the year timescale. Industry structure is happening, you know, perhaps over five to 10 years. And when I add a company like LG, as I said, they have this story of kind of rising from the ashes of war and like competing on the world stage. There is a very different kind of decision-making that's happening. And I get to sort of... I get a very close seat at that table. I get to watch those decisions being made. I often, can see myself now in an executive boardroom looking at the decision getting made and thinking to myself, there's a very different set of things unfolding here. And that's interesting to me. Super interesting. mean, there's a lot going on in the world globally right now, right around tariffs and things like that. Justin Aronstein (47:32.883) This question may not lead anywhere, but that anxiety you feel inside yourself, I know it. I feel it. It's real. I can actually point to my body exactly where it is. Is that in kind of conflict to thinking 10 to 20 years out, 10,000 years out? Girish Joshi (47:41.676) Yeah. Justin Aronstein (47:57.595) or is in concert with. Girish Joshi (48:00.022) Well, I hesitate a little bit because I don't do that long-term thinking enough to say. I'm pretty forgiving around what I do and how my nature, I just tend to be like, that's who I am and I'm okay with it. So I don't, but I don't know. Justin Aronstein (48:25.299) Yeah, awesome. So now we're gonna go with the checkout portion. Kind of looking ahead and really thinking about... How do you make the brand experience at LG or any other brand you're thinking about synonymous with reliability and trust? How do you do that? Girish Joshi (48:46.934) This is like, this is my favorite topic. I'm so excited because this is what I'm actually working on right now. Okay. So the very first thing that, that the brand did is kind of, kind of stake claim to reliability. And we did that through our badge and through getting consumer reports to say great things about us that are true. And you know, our products don't break. That's nice. So the next part was like trying to define what that meant in terms of like the e-commerce experience. So the very first thing that I started working on was the notion of warranties and innovating there in warranties. If you go on our website, you're going to see the best value you can get for a warranty anywhere in the business by far. And that's standing beyond our product as reliable. What you won't see is like our super snappy and fast website. And that is a problem. And so the next part around being reliable is like, we don't, it's not just the products that we sell that are reliable. It's the experiences that we sell that are reliable. first experience is the website, so we're in the process of making that transformation. That's the second part of creating a reliable experience. The next thing is something you and I have talked about at quite a great length, and this is conversational commerce. So if you start chatting, and very shortly if you start calling on the phone with our new agents, they've been trained extensively directly by people, sometimes in Korea, by the folks who actually manufacture the product, and they can give you the best, absolute best information. about the product online in a way that you just can't get from the Best Buy or I shouldn't say that they're a wonderful partner but any retailer has to learn a lot of different products and we have people who we have engineers who built our products that are available and Girish Joshi (50:39.234) So that's the second thing. When I think of what we call our better life pros, I'm trying to create the relationship of being with your uncle or your mom who really knows this stuff and you can just take their word for it. This is absolutely trying to port the chewy customer service experience to the appliance world. And then the next thing, and this is another area that again, my entire industry stock response really a great deal of difficulty around delivering installation. So here the issue is that Justin Aronstein (51:14.226) Mm-hmm. Girish Joshi (51:20.298) Again, you're dealing with like, every major provider is outsourcing the last mile delivery. And if you outsource the last mile delivery, that outsource person often forgets that the real customer is the person who bought the thing, not me who buys their services. I'm not the customer, my customer is the customer. And so we're starting to innovate there later in Justin Aronstein (51:29.395) Mm-hmm. Girish Joshi (51:50.004) in the summer, you're gonna see our own network rolled out with LG hats. And this is part of my direct to consumer strategy. So these are the major areas. So number one is kind of changing the website experience, conversational commerce, doing a lot around warranties, and then also doing an owned delivery and repair service. So this is the scheme. We are deep in implementing it. I suspect to some degree you will see all of it rolled out before the year is out. And that's the plan. That's the plan. Justin Aronstein (52:23.503) Lots of questions from that. I want to start with the delivery. Because I've actually, I've shipped appliances before in my past life, and customers see the person, whether it's a white glove delivery or to the curb, they see that as an extension of your company. If you ordered a white glove to get the refrigerator up in New York City to your third story walk up, and they break it along the way or they dent it. Connor (52:25.078) you Girish Joshi (52:27.67) Mm-hmm. Girish Joshi (52:41.409) Mm-hmm. Justin Aronstein (52:50.833) They don't blame the delivery company because they just think the delivery company is you. They have no idea. So I love what you're doing around that. I think that's amazing. Girish Joshi (52:55.222) Mm-hmm. Girish Joshi (53:00.822) That's exactly right. Justin Aronstein (53:05.383) But how do you do that across all 50 states? This country is huge. Like how do you build that delivery network when you're not always delivering to Hodunk, Montana? Like it's one thing for New York City, but how do you manage the whole country? That's amazing. Girish Joshi (53:26.114) How... I can't answer this, but I don't want to answer this. On a recorded way. Justin Aronstein (53:31.069) Got it, that's fine. That's fine. Perfect, that's absolutely fair. We will edit that out. Not a problem. You've been very open with everything else, so do not fret about that at all. Connor (53:31.566) Fair. Girish Joshi (53:39.838) Girish Joshi (53:45.922) I want to give you a clue. Girish Joshi (53:52.202) I can't. I'm sorry. Justin Aronstein (53:54.929) That's fine. No problem. No problem. So. Girish Joshi (53:56.15) Yeah. Justin Aronstein (54:00.167) the website, bringing that up so it represents your brand. And that's something that you iteratively do, that's something that you're be, have some large project. How do you make that happen in a way that represents your vision and ensures business success? Girish Joshi (54:20.17) Everything that I just talked about, all those pillars that I discussed, aren't traditionally in the tunnel of e-commerce. The website is the most of that, actually. But the start of this is, if we're going to think this big, we have to get our other partners on board to work in that direction. It's certainly true with supply chain and third party board into companies. So with the website, know, lot of what we're talking about here are technology partners inside and outside the organization. And this is, I'm very blessed to have like, have partners here who want to work with me and are actually willing to accept input into their area. So we do it iteratively. And my background, We do it iteratively. So one of the things that I'm really fortunate with is that my basic philosophy around technology is to try to, is to do like the best of breed concept. Like I'm not a huge believer in platforms. a very similar reason I'm not a huge believer in frameworks, but I'm not a big believer in platforms because I want to make the things that need to be better, better as much as I need to. And I don't want to be kind of like locked into something. And I'm fortunate that that inherent philosophy already exists inside of my technology organization. David Kim is a real visionary in that way. And Kal Rahman, who built it up at Samsung, incredible visionary in that way. So that's the start. The start is we're willing to build things ourselves when we need to, go custom, and then we can sort of enhance a part and make that part as good as possible. Now, how do you pick the part? I think you wanna be opportunistic and impactful. And that sometimes... Girish Joshi (56:30.858) requires like practical compromises. you change what you can when you can. And then I'm also looking at what I think are the most important things and trying to change that now. Connor (56:40.782) you Girish Joshi (56:43.618) That's a... We're getting into the details of that or something I have to hold a little close to my chest. Yeah. Yeah. Justin Aronstein (56:50.833) Yeah, that's perfect. That's awesome. Awesome. Looking at e-commerce as a whole, maybe LG through the lens of LG, where do you think the opportunities will be for the next 12 months? Where will growth come from? Girish Joshi (57:09.794) Well, I I just laid out the strategy. the growth is going to come from that. it's going unbelievably well. Our earnings results were released last quarter, and they call that direct to consumer for, I think it's now the third or fourth quarter in a row. It's going astonishingly well. I think maybe if you change the time frame, and we were talking like two or three years down the road. Justin Aronstein (57:12.571) Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Justin Aronstein (57:20.787) Awesome. Justin Aronstein (57:28.711) Amazing. Justin Aronstein (57:37.672) Yeah. Girish Joshi (57:38.282) My vision is that we've changed the notion of reliability so much. We've changed that people are talking about LG the way people used to talk about Apple, where it just works. It's just okay. And when we reach that place, I think my sort of job with direct-to-consumer at LG will be done. And is there another... Frontier for e-commerce. Girish Joshi (58:13.262) I have to tell you, I don't see it yet, Justin. And maybe I'm not thinking big enough, but there is a part of me that feels like... Girish Joshi (58:26.698) Okay, here's my hot take, and I'm not even sure if I believe this. My hot take is that the... Is it the next generation for e-commerce is going to be about? disposal. Like I don't think that it's so much going to be around consumption, but it's going to be more around how we refresh like what we have. And so this could be the idea of like everything's a subscription, you know, the EAS world. But to me, that's actually not the interesting part about this. What I think people are interested in is like feeling like they're not wasting. Justin Aronstein (59:03.293) Mm-hmm. Girish Joshi (59:13.676) They're not like, I don't know, but I feel like super icky when I have like a, I don't know, like a wall of Amazon boxes I have to throw out. that ick, like I can't rationalize it, you know? Like the capitalist in me is like, buy more boxes, my friend. But there's something about it that's not quite right. And I feel like, Justin Aronstein (59:22.545) Yeah, that's real. Justin Aronstein (59:33.597) Yeah. Girish Joshi (59:40.502) that if e-commerce is really going to innovate, they're going to find a way to do this. And the existing solutions here are just bad. Like new packaging isn't right. There's something else around discovery. And think open the LLM thing is sort of changing discovery. And maybe it's all expert and agentic led. And I think that misses the point. OK, here's another hot take. So like the... The Amazon retail model is built on like assortment, price, supply chain on some level, then customer experience. And then everybody is innovating in these big buckets and taking it to like this extreme level. There is another... component of retail that and by the way that entire thing from Amazon comes from Walmart. There's a great book called The Everything Story that describes us. But there's another bit of magic and I think the magic is what you were talking about Connor and storytelling and this is the Disney component of magic and this is manufacturing desire and wonder and I don't think that's done well in e-commerce. So Justin Aronstein (01:00:36.85) Yeah. Girish Joshi (01:01:00.93) I think there's something there, but I don't know what that is. Connor (01:01:07.534) That's great answer. Justin Aronstein (01:01:08.281) I that. I completely agree. There's totally something there and there are some small companies that do that well. Like one that comes to mind just because it's really in my neighborhood is Howler Brothers. They're a small kind of fishing like lifestyle. Every 40 year old guy in Austin has three Howler Brothers shirts and two hats. And none of them have ever fished before. But they sell that lifestyle. Girish Joshi (01:01:22.286) yeah. Justin Aronstein (01:01:39.255) even though I go to my mom's kids soccer games every weekend. So they've... Yeah, exactly. And they've done a really good job with that. But I agree, for the most part, there isn't storytelling going on. Connor (01:01:43.758) Just a blue collar, stolen valor. That kind of a... Girish Joshi (01:01:52.106) Connor, I'm not laughing because that's such an insightful comment. You like made it in pop. It's like not it's like went beyond funny. That's great. love it. That's a great joke. Blue collar stolen Valor how well said apt. Connor (01:01:59.316) I appreciate you not laughing at the joke then. Thank you. Justin Aronstein (01:01:59.859) Ha ha ha! Justin Aronstein (01:02:04.275) So, kind of lastly to end this conversation is what are you reading or watching that excites you? Whether it's like about e-commerce or just about life or anything that's really exciting you right now and either watching, reading, listening to... Connor (01:02:08.494) Yeah. Girish Joshi (01:02:26.89) I'm crazy about ideas and there are three podcasts that give me my idea fix. Number one is the Lex Friedman podcast. I just adore it. It's got some incredible e-commerce leaders on there by the way. Lex is a bit of a slow talker, so I would suggest listening to that at 2x at a minimum. And it's just totally different experience. And the other two podcasts I love are Mindscapes. Justin Aronstein (01:02:36.861) Mm-hmm. Justin Aronstein (01:02:46.738) Hahaha Justin Aronstein (01:02:50.827) huh. Girish Joshi (01:02:55.458) and philosophize this. adore these podcasts. And then in terms of what I'm reading from an e-commerce perspective, I got a lot out of the everything store. Justin Aronstein (01:03:06.355) Mm-hmm. Girish Joshi (01:03:10.859) I have I that's it. knew this question was coming and I think maybe I'm like semi-literate because I can't remember the last time I read a book that didn't have pictures in it. Justin Aronstein (01:03:25.017) No. Someone recommended a book to me the other day and I was like, that sounds really good. So I went to deep research and said, okay, can you please give me all the takes that are actually gonna apply to my life in chapter by chapter. And within 15 minutes, I got like the book. I was like, okay, great. don't need to read this book now. just got. Girish Joshi (01:03:48.35) There's something Justin Aronstein (01:03:54.163) Which is terrible. I know it's terrible, but at the same time, I have a kid. Like, I got things to do. Like, I have to connect with... Girish Joshi (01:04:02.016) You got things to do. Justin Aronstein (01:04:05.267) So I don't know. Girish Joshi (01:04:06.882) There's I was here's a book that I really like I was just recommending it to someone the other day give-and-take by Adam Grant Yeah, so it's about He's an organizational psychologist. It's kind of about like people's nature how to manage their energy and get ahead sort of according to your nature and how to help others Justin Aronstein (01:04:15.367) Okay. Girish Joshi (01:04:29.718) Which I mean, it's pretty obvious, Justin, like you're very oriented towards helping, probably for its own sake. think that get, think that helping is something that just means something to you, period. You're in the minority in that. Justin Aronstein (01:04:44.049) I appreciate that. Helping around the house is not something I do for its own sake, but in other things, yes, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time. Your insights were just absolutely incredible. This was amazing. Thank you. We really appreciate it. So again, yeah. Girish Joshi (01:04:52.566) Yes. Girish Joshi (01:05:04.994) Thanks for having me.