How to Use Segmentation to Grow Revenue - Anna Christensen

Justin Aronstein (00:01.481) Welcome to Check In to Check Out. Today we have Anna, Director of E-commerce for Buff City Soap. So Anna, what does your role entail? What do do every day? Anna (00:14.446) Great question. feel like all e-commerce leaders probably feel like they wear every hat possible. So my day or my role includes a little bit of everything. I still had a pretty interesting cross section between marketing, technology, and a lot of finance, which I never thought would be the thing when I started out in e-comm. I didn't think I'd be working so closely within finance. But I... I've led through, I've led Buff through a really big transformation where they went from just a brick and mortar retail brands with, you know, like almost 300 locations to standing up their first website to understanding, yeah, how it works with buy online, pick up at store, ship from store fulfillment, all of those things. So it's been a journey. So a lot of fun. So it's kind of a mix between an operational seat. Justin Aronstein (00:56.844) Wow. Justin Aronstein (01:06.7) Mm-hmm. Anna (01:12.791) and a digital first seat. Connor (01:16.486) Nice. Justin Aronstein (01:16.543) Awesome, so as you're standing up at your e-commerce site, how big is your team? Anna (01:22.638) Three. Well, I did say the mighty team of three. call ourselves SheCom. There is, we're all women and it's great. I have like the world's best developer I've ever worked with. She's phenomenal. And then, so we have a developer myself and then an operations manager that handles all of the coordination of the fulfillment. And because the products are handmade live, it's sort of like a Chipotle vibe. Justin Aronstein (01:24.567) Okay. Uh-huh. Awesome, I love that. Connor (01:24.607) wow. Anna (01:51.054) You order online, they make this up for you. Our operations manager is handling all of these sort of back end customer experience. And then our developer, I say, is like handling all the front end customers. Connor (01:51.185) Hmm. Justin Aronstein (02:06.679) So you handle all the marketing, sounds like, because you have a developer who changed this website, and then you have operations who's got logistics and customer service. Do you do all that yourself? Do you rely on partners? I mean, e-commerce marketing is huge. You have to have a ton of skills. Anna (02:11.086) Mm-hmm. Anna (02:25.772) Yeah. So what's interesting is right now, the way that it's structured within the company is that there's store marketing, which they have a very large team. And then there's the, that does everything for the site. So we're kind of working towards an integration where we'll all be one and, you know, whatever's being done in stores, also being done online and building up that Omni-channel sort of view. But as of now, I'm running, what I think are all the best practices for digital marketing. And we have some support through different agencies. Definitely get to pull from like creative and things that they're running for stores is great pulling and we sort of pick and choose, I'd like that, I'd like that. Those types of creatives will work for us. And it's been an evolution for sure, but I am doing, I think, More marketing than I've ever done before, which has been interesting growing a channel that is new, but doing it with in-store materials that weren't built for you originally has been a huge learning for me. And it's been like a lot of pivot, copy paste pivot, I think is my mantra. And it's been a lot of fun. Justin Aronstein (03:29.644) Mm-hmm. Justin Aronstein (03:35.991) Mm-hmm. Justin Aronstein (03:45.995) And how do you find those in-store kind of creatives work in the world of meta-endromeda and TikTok? And because it's very different, right? Anna (03:57.504) Yes, it is very different. And it's a lot of iterations. So it's difficult because they're designing initially for door swings inside of a store. They're trying to get the people who are shopping. They're trying to have them understand the experience of walking into one of our makeries. And I'm essentially trying to do the same thing, but not having the scent counter or the retail theater that they get to have within the brick and mortar experience. So I take a lot of their themes and try to jumble them up into a way that makes sense for a digital guest to understand. One of the biggest things that I think has made a huge difference is a lot of storytelling on the website, a lot of pictures of how things are sent in, how to open a bottle, how to press down on the spritz. to get something to spray and giving the more instructional kind of edge and walking them through the first experience that you'll have with Buff through the last experience and building out your basket and trying to make it as much of a match as the insert experience. Connor (05:10.812) That's awesome. We love to talk about storytelling. I feel like that's one of the best tools you can have when you're building out an e-commerce store is just defining that narrative and learning, you know, what is the story that your guests are living, you know, when they experience your product. Interesting. Justin Aronstein (05:11.073) Yeah, how? Justin Aronstein (05:18.775) Thank Anna (05:25.752) Yeah. Justin Aronstein (05:30.209) So how do you recreate, like scent is so important in soap. Like, I mean, I've bought soaps because I stayed at a hotel and I love the scent and I love the feeling of that soap. like, well, I want to recreate that experience in my house. So how do you recreate that in a digital where maybe they haven't touched your product before? Anna (05:35.15) Yeah. Anna (05:51.202) Yeah, so something that I really, I think I am the most proud of is we went through sort of like a V1 of the website. And then this past year, we really did a revamp where we brought in textural elements so that you could understand how like the viscosity of the lotion, for example, or really in a lot of the copy that's explaining the product or the scent specifically, it's a lot of really imagined. imaginative romance coffee type language where you're trying to transport people to a specific place and get them to understand like, oh, this scent is called Narcissist and here's what it smells like. I don't know if it's what all Narcissist smells like, but it's what the buff Narcissist smells like and those peaches and patchouli. So we definitely have had a lot of. Justin Aronstein (06:30.995) Hahaha Connor (06:31.398) I was curious, I saw that name, yeah, interesting. Justin Aronstein (06:38.271) hahahahah Connor (06:39.153) Ha Anna (06:44.968) it's been a lot of iconography added to things. I think that's one of the most special touches that we've brought is adding in the set notes wherever we can and reminding people and weaving it through all of the different PDPs and collections. Another thing, I think it's pretty basic in most e-commerce worlds, but we brought together a set quiz. Most people have a product quiz, help me find my right. whatever moisturizer, but this is specifically geared towards how you want to feel when you're experiencing scent. So that's a huge opener into the brand to understand even where to start. And that was one of our first initiatives when we were like, shit, people have no idea what commando is gonna smell like. It's just called commando. And so maybe we should expand on that a little bit. Justin Aronstein (07:30.847) Yes. Anna (07:36.878) So it's been a lot of work and a lot of edification, I think for myself and the consumer. But we've built up this really loyal customer base that has started to understand and they have started to take risks. Like, oh, I like this set family. This is what I've learned through this and what I've purchased over and over. I'll probably like something that's very similar. So we're starting to see a lot of people who understand now our foundational notes and have started to take risks and try new ones and build into other categories. and try some different sense than what they entered the brand. Connor (08:11.92) What brought y'all to the point of creating a Scent Guide? Is that something that maybe the users gave y'all feedback on? Was it just something y'all were discussing internally and thought, just gotta take this direction? Anna (08:26.242) Yeah. Yeah. so I'm originally a beauty and skincare girly. I've worked on all those brands and I know how great a quiz converts. If you can tell me what moisturiser or where in a routine something live. it was a different challenge for me. We're talking about like laundry soap and bar soap and things that aren't as easily understandable to the consumer. Like, Connor (08:36.838) Mm-hmm. Anna (08:53.134) I'm buying laundry soap and a scent that's gonna stick on my clothes all day. What if I hate it? So it was one of the very first things that I think it was one of the very first sort of V2 iterations that was brought to the site of the We Need a Scent Quiz. And we need people to understand how this will make them feel throughout the day, but also like what the notes are, what they gravitate towards all of that. But it's definitely pulling from past experience for sure. Connor (08:59.036) your state. Connor (09:22.548) Yeah, the quizzes is beautiful. I love the way it's designed I thought it was actually interesting that y'all collect the email before you give them the answer Was that what was the choice? What was the logic behind that because I've seen that convert so well, I'm curious if you'll test that or did y'all just Implement it and you've seen great results It's been out Anna (09:33.87) Yeah. Anna (09:40.138) So yeah, that's definitely something I've done in the past and it's just something that works. People will wait to get their results, but also I'm getting your data. I'm going to email you and I'm going to email you or you're going to be added to my list. We're going to go there. So another cutesy thing on there is that you're also opting into marketing when you're giving us your email. So hey, let's get you into that welcome flow. Let's get those automations running. Connor (10:06.554) Yeah, this is phenomenal. It's really good work. Anna (10:08.418) Hey! Justin Aronstein (10:10.231) Do you guys do a lot of experimentation on the site I you have a developer. Is that something that's part of your development roadmap of, let's test this first. And what's that look like? Anna (10:20.386) Yeah, it's all test and learn for us, I would say. They let us take more risks on the site. We're a smaller portion of the business. There's so many retail locations. We do have, like in a weird way, a lot of flexibility to like play, see how things go. So I think it's a constant conversation. When I set out and I make our roadmap each year of like, these are our boulders that we're gonna accomplish. These are our rocks, whatever. On there is always a good portion of things we want to test and learn. We just finished adding the movement or the imagery videos to the home page. And that was like an interactive slider. The welcome videos, you can see what a make-ery looks like. That's something that we're currently testing and watching nonstop to see how it's impacting conversion and adoption. Or if there's a lot of rage clicks happening as people do not care about a video, we will take the video down. But so far so good and I think that's kind of the beauty of having a small team is that like ability to quick pivot and we're in constant communication of hey, conversion was shit yesterday and I watched a hot jar session that was really wild and the person rage clicked 466 times, we probably should move an item. We should pay attention. Connor (11:38.524) Yeah. Justin Aronstein (11:40.437) Awesome. And does that include AB testing as a part of that kind of testing? Anna (11:45.29) Yeah, when we have more time, we do a lot of A-B testing. I think that usually happens over summer for us. That's our slow season. But right now, we are in a ramp up and a revenue grab place. So it's sort of like launch and see. Let's see what sticks. Yeah, launch and pray that it'll work. Justin Aronstein (11:49.929) huh. huh. Justin Aronstein (12:06.567) If you had a bigger team, you do more A-B testing? Anna (12:12.694) Yeah, I've had the luxury of having some pretty large teams in the past, some that have even included like QA departments that will go in and test all your different modules for you and tell you how things are working. in the past, it's always been a best practice of mine. think just with where we're at from a bandwidth perspective, we try to do that as often as we can. It's just not something that's sustainable right now. Justin Aronstein (12:37.175) I love it. Yeah. And people of your size, it's so common. mean, that's absolutely so common. switching gears a little, you've done some amazing work on Buff City. So the site looks great. Looking back at your career, do you have any memorable failures, places that you've learned that have made you a better marketer, better e-commerce director? Anna (12:42.648) Yeah. Anna (12:59.758) Oh God, don't we all? Yeah, let's see. I kind of took some thought to think about as you're doing reflections on your end of year, you're writing your little performance reviews, and it starts to get you thinking too, not even just the job you're in, but the past crap that you've overcome. And I think one of the biggest failures that I had when I first started at Buff, I know we're looking past. but this was one of my biggest learnings was moving too fast before bringing people along for the journey. So in a sense, I was trying to get a lot of crap done and a lot of crap built to get things across the finish line and learning that people need to be educated because it was brand new and that I needed to like have exercise some patience there. So it's really like taking a step back and being like, okay, these people have never had an e-commerce presence before. Let's take them back to 101. What is the purpose of the website? How do we need to move forward? But I came in with my usual rigor that all these people were gonna know what conversion was. And when I had to explain to somebody, oh, this is what conversion rate means, I think it was like a light bulb went off. Oh, I've really been leaving these people out. and they have no clue what I'm talking about half the time. Justin Aronstein (14:27.319) And you thought they did because they weren't asking questions. you just assumed, okay, great. No questions, good to go. When in reality, there were no questions. They didn't even know where to begin. They didn't even know what question to ask. And as a human, we're afraid to look like idiots. And so they weren't asking questions. So you're just zooming along. Anna (14:30.274) Yep. Yeah. Anna (14:48.558) Yeah, thought, hey, you hired me. You know what a director of Vcom is. You know what we're doing. You know what the mission is here. But I, it truly was someone asking me who was in store ops what is conversion rate is when I send out like my monthly recap. They're like, what does that mean? What does CVR mean? And I was like, shit. Like we gotta take it back. We gotta roll it back. We're running before we can walk. Justin Aronstein (14:57.568) Yeah. Connor (15:14.204) Thank Anna (15:18.143) And that was a big learning. Justin Aronstein (15:18.635) huh. Yeah. Yeah, that's huge. I mean, I've totally been in that position where I'm just like running, running, running and, and no one knows what's going on or why it's going on. And I'm just running by myself and you can always run faster with the team with you as opposed to by yourself. that's Anna (15:31.458) Yeah. Yeah. Connor (15:38.716) Do you feel like there's a lot of conflicts with the e-commerce and the real retail team? Or do you feel like there's ever been a moment where like you've wanted to do something and it's, it's really put y'all at ends and you've had to kind of give an example of that. Anna (15:52.078) So yeah, so first off, when I first started in my role, everyone was convinced that we were going to seal the in-store customer. And that, yeah, that we were taking their customers, we were ruining stores, how dare we? And so the whole first year that I've been at Buff, there was not even the website listed on the packaging. So that was just like an Connor (16:02.138) Yes, I've seen that. Connor (16:18.758) Hmm. Anna (16:21.23) Overall like, this is who, yep. I was like, this is who we are, okay. And so it was hard. was like definitely getting into the like weeds and the nitty gritty and standing a lot up and teaching at the same time. And it was rough. It was very rough. And when you have the underlying, I think, fear from people that you're going to break something or destroy something that got them there. Connor (16:21.724) setting you up for failure. Justin Aronstein (16:25.825) Yeah Anna (16:48.544) It is really difficult to be like this catalyst person, like coming in and having to be the change while you're educating, but also you have a mandate yourself is really fricking hard. And I think it took like a lot of just like grit. And I'm like the type of person that I, there's nothing that can stop me until it's myself that stops me. Connor (16:52.422) Mm-hmm. Connor (17:16.102) Mm. Anna (17:16.27) And so I just kept pushing and the first year I was there, it was the revenue that spoke and that was like, oh shit, like we can do something here and I get why we need e-comm. And then the second year it was data and I did this huge analysis, brought out sort of all these visuals of an online customer and an in-store customer and how much crossover they have. really stealing your guess? the answer was no, it was less than 1%. We were stealing, we were the acquisition engine for the brand, we were bringing in the new customers, the retained customers were really focused on going in store. So as we built out more of a, I think an avenue to be more inclusive of each other stores and online, my way into sort of build those relationships was through both this and like getting my online pick up, pick up Connor (17:52.316) Mm-hmm. Anna (18:14.262) and store stood up to show the stores that, we are one. We're trying to drive people to your store. You have the opportunity then to upsell them. You have the opportunity then to show them the retail magic that you can do. But we'll get them to your door if you let us. And that's what really, I think, unlocked the partnerships and gave people a sense of ease of, my god, they're actually, we're here to do this together. We're all one. We're not stealing, we're not ruining anything. We might be a little bit cooler looking, but we'll take it. Connor (18:46.012) You Justin Aronstein (18:46.199) Hehehehehe Connor (18:50.054) Yeah. Yeah. It's such a difficult relationship to build because I've seen it go the other way to where the e-comm store doesn't want to do any sort of focus or any sort of in-store finder because they're worried you're going to steal customers from, the e-commerce store. but it's always about, like you said, it's just tying that, that story together and showing that it's all about, you know, it does increase revenue at end of the day and y'all can work, you know, synergistically. Anna (18:55.534) Yeah. Anna (19:16.578) Yeah, I think even now something that's at the top of my mind as we've finished out all these iterations of the site are all of the places we can plug in stores. So adding, just added to midpoint on the homepage, another location finder for someone to search for their closest location. We have it in the mega nav, but now we have a mid page. You also have a link in the footer. So it's something I'm constantly thinking about because I want to show that like connective tissue and like Connor (19:43.9) Mm-hmm. Anna (19:44.598) keep bringing up like, you can experience this physically as much as I can. But I do think it's a really fine line. And I'm obsessive over my guests too, and I want to retain them. But there's ways that we can do that where we're helping each other out as opposed to competing. Connor (20:02.94) It's a great app. Justin Aronstein (20:03.119) Love that. it's such the the BOPUS as kind of a peace offering for the retail is such an insight. That's an amazing insight. I love that. So what's your e-commerce hot take? Anna (20:12.878) Yeah. Anna (20:21.834) Ooh, there's so many, right? Like, I feel like everybody has their own. I hate that. I love that. I think that we really need to start to embrace AI in a positive way. I think that there's a lot of fear around AI. But as a team of three, will tell you, getting some tools that take away a lot of the like, I can you know, set up predictive, predictive nudges, or I can show you what your suggested product should be based on what's in your card and not have to like manually place items there. Anyway, we can like skin, skim down on our time there. It really has become like a huge help to us, but I under, I also understand the fear of it. I get it. Like it can take jobs away. I see it. I've seen now I've watched some TikTok. people like, I'm truly have people coding in chat GPT and then copying the code and putting it on their storefront. And I'm like, that's risky, but okay. Let's, let's see how that goes. Have you? Connor (21:33.535) I've heard some horror stories. They can go south very, very quickly. A lot of it is when they code things and they put it on there and they don't put the right security or... Connor (21:46.012) don't know enough about it from a technical standpoint, but I know it can go bad. Anna (21:49.068) It can go south. Yeah, I can imagine. Justin Aronstein (21:51.883) Are you guys using AI in your creative process yet for ad creation? Anna (21:58.19) So the first place we'll be doing that, one of the biggest initiatives that I'm working on this year is rolling out an app, which is a whole nother beast in itself. But yeah, I'm super excited about it. I've done it before. I think it'll bring a new, like even more competitive edge and give our loyal customer base more ways to interact with us. But that'll be one of the first places that we'll do it. I think. Justin Aronstein (22:07.331) Whoa. Anna (22:23.23) Having the tools like tap card that has their AI suite that will create like the push notifications for you based on what the customer is doing in the app, I think is where we'll start. And then they even have blocks that they will have designed for you based on like what's going on in your app. So that will be interesting to see how it sort of plays out. I think transparently. Buff has a lot of discovery to do about their own brand voice and brand image, brand presence that they're waiting through right now. So everything is really hands on with creative. And I don't think anybody's comfortable enough to pass it over to some box. Connor (23:05.766) What was the motivation for making an app instead of investing just more into the store? Is it a personalization? I can't say that word every time, but yeah, I'm curious. Justin Aronstein (23:06.027) That's too bad because there's so much opportunity there. Anna (23:08.717) now. Anna (23:18.147) Yeah. Anna (23:21.664) Yeah, so for me, I think I'm looking at the app as being a true loyalty play. We have a really strong in-store loyalty base. It's huge. And I think that they're looking for more ways to interact with the brand. So for me, this is somewhere where our core is going to sit. I don't think it's going to be any sort of acquisition engine. I think it's going to drive just more brand engagement, brand awareness. amongst our core that then trickles out a little bit. But I want it to feel like a really unique and special experience for people that love Buff and we'll have some Apple and the offers in there as well as pretty happy integration with the in-store loyalty program that'll be featured in the app as well as bringing subscription management in there, which they can do right now, but it's all spread out amongst various platforms. think just having the Buff in your pocket idea will give us more connectivity to our guests. And that's what we're kind leaning into it for. Connor (24:26.396) Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. got a couple brands that have done it for that exact reason, so I love that. Justin Aronstein (24:33.463) I love that a lot. looking at your profile, you know a ton, you've done a ton of work on retention. So as you look at Buffer, you look at other companies that you stepped into, other companies you talked to, what are the glaring opportunities in retention for most e-commerce shops? Anna (24:55.18) Yeah, actually this brings up AI again, but I don't know why brands don't take advantage of as much segmentation and triggers as possible. I think it's like such a huge lost opportunity of how many winbacks and things that you can like sort of set and forget until you want to A-B test the creative again and work through each individual email in the flow. I've just seen a lot of success when you get them right. I think at one of the The company is at Dime Beauty when I set up, it was like 25 different post purchase flows and journeys that people could go on. And it became such a substantial portion of our business was capturing through all of these retention flows and re-engaging customers that had, in my mind, I would have considered churned. I would have considered them lost, getting people, we had one flow that was set up to like recapture people that hadn't made a purchase in two years. And the random people that would come back. nowhere, be like, I really like this moisturizer, and then getting them back into the welcome flow. And it was all kind of a big circular puzzle, I guess. But I think that there's a lot of money left on the table. And I don't think that people really lean into it as much as they can. Justin Aronstein (26:11.105) So 25 different post-purchase flows. Maybe any company I'm talking to maybe has two, maybe three. Can you help me understand what 25 flows looks like in the post-purchase journey? Because that's a ton. Anna (26:23.916) Yeah, yeah, we did so much like hyper hyper segmentation work on purchase this item once and then but but browse this page purchased this set maybe would like a subscription and it got as granular as that as well as then, you know, breaking it down by spend tiers, even time of year tiers and the seasonality, people that are just shopping deals over Black Friday and Cyber Monday and trying to get them back into our regular flow. there was a lot of really hyper focused work on segmentation. Justin Aronstein (27:08.183) Wow, that's incredible. So if someone wants to go down that path, what are some triggers to know that they're ready and how do they get started? Anna (27:09.442) the block. Anna (27:19.81) Ooh, I love this question. I think your biggest trigger to know if you're ready, if you see good attribution from your emails in general, or let's say you even just have one welcome flow set up or thank you flow. If you're seeing good attribution there, that's probably an indicator that people want to engage with the brand a bit more. They're interested in your creative in some way because they're opening the email. And I think it's starting to test. And start small. I don't think you need to go after 25 flows right away. But you can definitely start playing with spend tiers is where I would start and engaging with those high dollar VIP guests right away and keeping them in your your retention loop for sure. Justin Aronstein (28:04.279) And so like, a flow? So if someone's post already purchased before, they're getting your marketing emails probably. So why is a flow necessary to win back that customer two years ago when they've been getting marketing emails for the past two years? Why a flow? Anna (28:13.742) Mm-hmm. Anna (28:22.862) I think it's a unique opportunity to target a specific product or an offer. We went steeper in discounting inflows. We would do product-specific discounts that were never on sale anywhere else. So again, we actually did lean into AI there. Like, hey, this person liked this. They'd probably like this again. And we would customize and use their name. you get like, hey, Michelle, we really miss you. It's been two years. Your skin's probably real dry. You haven't bought moisturizer from us. So it's it's playing into, I think it's playing into it instead of like a generic email. It's like flash sale, 25 % off of everything site wide. Justin Aronstein (29:06.987) Got it. So it's that personalization, being able to call the person out. I love that. Yeah, that's such a lever that people can pull that they're probably not in the same way that they could be totally. That might be your four to 5 % growth this year out of your eight that you need to hit. That's awesome. Is there any part of your job that you dread? Anna (29:09.005) Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Anna (29:19.633) yeah, money on the table. Anna (29:36.514) Loaded question. You know, I want to pause for a minute. Let's see. I think, you know, it is a challenge working within like in stores, like having that competitive conversation all the time. In NeverEnds, we can show data. We can tell you it less than 1 % of people that did shop in your store now become online shoppers. We can do all of that, but it's the repetitive constant meetings every quarter about it. It's the board feedback about it. It just feels like it never goes away. And I think, I don't know if it's like the part that I dread the most, but it's the part that I don't understand the most. Like, why can't we move on from this? We've shown you it's there. Where are we? What are we doing? It just feels like we're opening like childhood trauma wounds over and over and over again. Let's go. Let's move on. Connor (30:21.276) Mm. Justin Aronstein (30:34.495) Yeah, I could understand that. That makes sense. Well, this has been an enlightening conversation. What are you reading, listening to? watching that entertains you, that's making you a better marketer, that's making you a better person, that takes up your time. Anna (30:55.246) Yeah, so I'm a big podcast person, but I am trying to become more of a reader. I read last year, I had my team and I actually read a book called Working Backwards. That was pretty good. It breaks down real operating, what it really takes for something to operate smoothly. And sometimes we can get lost in the code, we can get lost in like... store communication, whatever it is. And so it was like a reminder of like, like the fundamentals are the best, best place to start when you start want to start to innovate and want to keep growing. It's not everything needs to be like a viral video. It's getting back to your fundamentals and reminding yourself like, let's start at the beginning. we even, is this, is the homepage shut up to be a converter? Are we marketing the brand correctly there? So I think it was a good, good reminder for sure. Justin Aronstein (31:32.631) Totally. Anna (31:51.778) Do you want to say, try to keep work out of my personal time as much as I can because of the loop of like constantly being on and available. so something that I found that's actually giving me more creativity, I think as I go into this next year is I'm really getting into more like junk journaling and like trying to find like creative outlets. And I think that that's become more of an inspiration to me than I. Justin Aronstein (31:58.231) I Justin Aronstein (32:03.809) Yeah. Anna (32:19.126) I had been feeling from absorbing knowledge from books or listening to business podcasts, things like that. It's really helped kind of turn the tides as I did even our planning for our roadmap and our budgets this year. Connor (32:34.076) Love that answer. Justin Aronstein (32:34.315) Yeah, I completely agree. don't read any business books. I don't listen to any business podcasts. I think that's not how I want to spend my time outside of my eight to five. Not that I don't think they're good. I'm sure they're great. I'm sure there's tons to learn and I could be better, but I have two kids now, so I'm kind of like, this is not how I want to be spending my time. Anna (32:45.912) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anna (32:59.438) Yeah. Connor (32:59.93) I get more inspiration from, from things that are not related to business for business. think it was exactly like you said, it's, weird how one discipline will actually train you better on. Anna (33:03.725) Exactly. Justin Aronstein (33:05.312) Yes. Justin Aronstein (33:11.255) home. Anna (33:11.342) So for sure, I love that. Yeah, totally. Justin Aronstein (33:15.297) Totally. Well, thank you so much, Anna. This has been a wonderful conversation. If people want to get to know you more, where can they find you? Where should they reach out? Anna (33:20.322) He's there. Yeah, check me out on LinkedIn, the good old LinkedIn. But also just go play around on the website. And I think you can see it like a pretty like theme of everything I've talked about as well as coming to life there. Yeah, this has been great. It's been so nice to get to know you guys and just chat it out. And I just want to say like, keep doing the work to all these econ people. It's hard out here. It's rough stuff. And the climate that we're in is tough and navigating through where we're at is the people is tough. So my hats to everyone in the same space. Justin Aronstein (34:01.332) It is tough. It's like a constant grind. Every year's harder. Anna (34:08.654) can't keep, like, you want me to chase the same thing every year, like give me something new, I get it! I get it. Connor (34:13.54) You Justin Aronstein (34:15.799) Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Anna (34:19.234) Thank you guys. Connor (34:20.859) Thank you. Anna (34:22.958) Bye.