Navigating Team Dynamics in E-commerce | Kasey Wiese

Justin Aronstein (00:18) Welcome to Check In to Check Out. On today's episode, we have Kasey the Director of E-commerce at Liberty Safe. Kasey, how long have you been there? What do you own? What do you control? What's your day look like? Kasey Wiese (00:30) So I'm actually sort of still new to Liberty. I've been there since August. I was really hired to come in and help grow their e-comm and shift kind of like their overall online presence. Was really excited to take the job because there's a ton of opportunity to come in and build a program for them. And I really, really love that side of e-comm too is like, how do you take something that has so much opportunity and scale it? So. Right now I'm kind of still in the trenches in a sense. mean, I've been there for five months, but there's still, there was a lot of stuff to untwine and all that stuff. Unfortunately, there was no overlap with the previous leader of e-comm. So I had to kind of connect with people internally and be like, what do know? What do you know? The upside is they're on Shopify plus and I'm a certified Shopify partner as well. So I was like, okay, at least I got that. But yeah, I'm responsible for all of our revenue growth. I also am responsible for traffic growth. So I kind of manage that team to help drive all of the, whether it's earned or owned traffic for us to the website. Justin Aronstein (01:35) Awesome, so you are in every single bucket. Connor (01:38) Mm. Kasey Wiese (01:38) Pretty much. Pretty much. Justin Aronstein (01:39) ⁓ Awesome. And how do you know like where to spend your time? There's so much. Kasey Wiese (01:44) Yeah, great, great question. I try to prioritize on the things that, and this is really kind of just like my overall life statement, but things I can control, right? Like if I'm looking at data and I'm like, I don't get hung up on the things that I know that I can't fix right away. Like what are those, some of those short-term wins that I can address, right? So then I'm like, okay, let's prioritize this because we know we're going to see some sort of ROI, whether it's financial or time. right, in terms of process. But a lot of times, you know, as we are in leadership roles, you end up kind of doing a lot of things that don't really fall into your role. Sometimes it's like chasing down content or chasing down assets or chasing down XYZ or adjusting budgets and stuff. So right, there's this whole like, side of the side of the role that you're just like, you're a secretary half the time. So I really have to focus on like, okay, what are the most important things that I can do right now to move the needle? And that's what I do. And those are things that I can control. I don't try to get hung up on things that I'm like, okay, this is going to take a dev team. This is going to take this. That's a future state. We're going to get there. know that's like a nice to have, but it's not an immediate fix to an issue we have now. Connor (02:57) Do you mind us asking how big is your team? Kasey Wiese (02:59) Yeah. so in terms of who reports to me, I have a, paid ad specialist. So she manages all of our meta Google and Bing, and then I have a social media and. If so facto like, like life cycle marketing gal that reports to me as well. So she manages kind of like our organic social, but then I also have her doing all of our email, and kind of like all of our drip campaigns and then largest regular. category sends. So right now, and then I also have a videographer photographer that rolls up under me. So three as of now, but I am the single ecom back end manage all that as well. Connor (03:36) Makes a lot of sense. One of the questions I'm always curious about is when do leaders in your position delegate things out to other people instead of taking the ownership themselves? And then when do they maybe hire partners for certain roles? Kasey Wiese (03:50) Yeah, I kind of really like to look at that as like how high touch the role is. Right. And by that, mean, like with the brand, like how often do I need to be like connecting with this person? You know, something like past roles. I would like look at things and be like, okay, what makes sense here from, you know, supporting our paid efforts in terms of, of digital marketing. And it was like, well, that isn't necessarily a conversation I need to be having every day. I just need somebody to like manage budgets and make sure that we're not like blowing out Rovaaz. Connor (04:00) Mm. Kasey Wiese (04:18) So to me, I'm like, do you hire a partner to do that instead? They're experts. like, they have all the contacts. So something goes wrong with your Google account, like they can make that happen because they're partners, right? But then I look at things like development, right? And when you have like your site breaks in the middle of cyber Monday or black Friday, like having someone in house to help manage that. is way easier than a team that's been outsourced or you have a team that you have to submit a ticket, help ticket through, and then you gotta wait for them to do that. And there's no emergency, right? So for me, it's really like that high, what's that touch? Is it high or is it like that mid to low touch kind of rule? Connor (04:59) Yeah, that's a great answer. Yeah, that's one of things I'm always interested about with a lot of our guests is, it's because you get a different answer every time. But I think the one you you're describing is a great answer. Kasey Wiese (05:06) Yeah. Yeah, that's, it's, hard sometimes though, then though, be like, okay, wait, was this the right choice? But you kind of navigate through. And I think that's a great thing about like partners and agencies. None of them are ever hurt, right? If you're like, Hey, we're going to actually bring this in house. They're like, yeah, happens to us all the time. Like we get that, you know, exactly, exactly. Connor (05:15) Mm-hmm. Yeah. You can take the emotion out of the equation a little more. I love that. Yeah. That is very true. Yeah. It's funny. Justin Aronstein (05:34) And so do you guys have in-house, do you all have in-house developers? Kasey Wiese (05:37) No, we don't. this is point of contention recently. So no, have a team right now. they're based in Boston though. So it's not too bad, but it is really hard to like, you know, we had some issues and like, I, know, we are, so I'll just use this as an example, cause it kind of covers both, but like right when we launched our three black Friday, Google flagged our site as compromised for awesome. Right. So they basically said, Nope, we're not going to display any of your. Connor (05:41) Hmm. Kasey Wiese (06:03) You know, we're going to just pause all your campaigns. And it was like, and Google's so, so nice at telling you why you've been compromised. just say there's something on your site. So it was just like, okay, how do I like put up like, so I had to post like an urgent ticket in our base camp board and like, wait for them to respond. Meanwhile, you know, ELT is like, what's going on? And I'm like, yeah, we're about to lose probably 40 grand because we don't have someone that I can like help dig into that. Right. And I think that's kind of the other side of prioritization and what you're good at. Right. So for me, like I know enough code stuff to be dangerous, but that's not where I thrive. So for me to start to dig in and look at like everything that could be compromising or if somebody put something, you know, some bad code on it, that's not me. So I have to lean into someone that is the expert there and So those are situations where I sometimes wish I did have someone in house. But then it's like you're building the whole team, right? Because then you need that front end and you need that back end where that agency, you're just paying a flat fee. So, but again, there's times when you really do wish they were in house. Justin Aronstein (07:08) What was the problem? Kasey Wiese (07:09) ⁓ so basically we had some. undefined tags in our head, I think was the problem. Something happened where like we had something that maybe had aged out. And it wasn't like, yeah, again, I know enough to be dangerous. And now I'm like, sometimes once things get fixed, know, my brain only has so much capacity. I'm like, we're moving on. I don't have worry about that anymore. Justin Aronstein (07:30) I don't have to worry about that anymore. ⁓ I love it. Yeah. I think it, the balance of when to bring in house team, especially development team. It's a tough question. There's, there's no right answer. So, it sounds like you've had a really successful career, director, e-commerce, successful company, and kudos to you, but I find more interesting people's failures. So. Kasey Wiese (07:42) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Justin Aronstein (07:54) What failures have you had in your career that you've been able to learn from? Kasey Wiese (07:58) Yeah. So actually Connor, you brought up something earlier about emotion, right? And I think that's like a big thing for me was I had a lot of things along the way where I took to personally in a sense that if like, you know, a lot of my roles, I've been singular in a sense where I didn't have like an e-comm team to back me up, right? Like I had some dev team folks or, but I didn't like have like a a merchandiser or I didn't have, you know, a true life cycle marketing person in one role. So I was kind of doing it all. So I took all that weight on an individual as an individual and then would beat the crap out of myself because I got too emotionally attached to when I messed up. And so I had to really start to learn to remove the emotion from things and conversations. And instead of being like, kind of like, Hey, this failed because you didn't give me the support I needed, I would remove that and be like, how do we solve this instead? So some of the failures have been just through my career have been just honestly moving too quickly, right? Not testing enough and going off assumption instead of data because of bandwidth in some instances. But you know, it's like when you send out that email with the typo, right? It goes out to your audience and you're like, it hits you in the pit of the stomach and you're like, Why did this happen? Like, and you kind of like me, I would like spiral and, just, again, coming back to remove the emotion and control that you can control. So a lot of the failures were really that kind of, you know, not thinking about what I could control. And then also I think you just, as, as you grow, you communicate better. And so just not communicating enough upfront or being too vague and like that causes breaks in your process. And that causes breaks in how things get done. And in the end, they'd all fell back to me, you know, like whether I was doing like a promo and I didn't give the right information upfront. And I think the biggest thing from your failures is making sure that you're actually learning from them. And I know people say that a lot, but I think me, the ones that like the email one, that one still is in my brain and it's been 12 years. Right. But that's something that I still think about. And I think about points of communication where I failed in the past and been like, Yeah, that was on me. And so how can I better communicate? And then the other side of failure is not understanding people, right? As you go through your role. And I think there's, we're not all psychologists. We can't read everybody's minds, but I think it's very important to be, in order to be successful is to really understand how to work with people. It's not a blanket approach, right? You have different emotions. You have different types of personalities. And really, if you're not thinking about that and you're communicating at the same style across everyone, because that's your style, that's a failure for yourself too. And I had to learn that the hard way with losing some clients. Connor (10:44) That's a great answer. I feel like that's one of the hard things about experimentation. I'm kind touching on a few of the things that you said, but you know, one is not getting too attached to things and removing your emotion. I know when I got into experimentation, it was like, you'd come up with these great ideas and you'd build out these great designs and then they would lose and you would, you'd have to kind of learn to like, okay, can't get too attached to this. I have to just figure out what didn't work and we're going to iterate and we're going to move really quickly. So when you're talking about this kind of a, it sounds to me like that's kind of the culture that you're. creating at Liberty Safe. Do you feel like that's been difficult in the past, like creating a culture that maybe kind of removes emotion but still promotes empathy? And then I think at the same time, it sounds like you're doing a lot of experimentation. And I think that all kind of goes hand in hand. Kasey Wiese (11:29) At Liberty, it's been welcomed because the role, the person who was in the role that I replaced, I mean, I don't want to speak ill of the person. don't know them, but the conversations I've had internally, rough around the edges, zero room for like having conversations about anything. was like my way highway, right? ⁓ So, but I, so there's a book I read a while back called Radical Candor by Kim Scott and it's Connor (11:31) Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kasey Wiese (11:53) It's really exactly that. It's how to be like transparent and honest and remove the emotion, but still be empathetic because that is the other side of me. I'm a huge empath. Like I feel everything. Like, you know, we just had an incident here locally with a gentleman that died in avalanche. And our friend was the paramedic that helped that he like gave CPR. He was off duty. He was out snowmobiling in the back country. He's the one that gave the CPR and ultimately helped. evacuate the gentleman, right? I felt every, I'm still, I felt every ounce of that for him, right? But in, you know, your professional life, you really kind of have to be like, what's the best for where I am right now at Liberty. And it's really kind of, then you figure out how you balance that, you know, being transparent and being honest and telling people like, Hey, this isn't working, but without like breaking them down. So that's kind of where you have to balance that. And I use that even for like, my employees, I'm gonna tell you, I'm not gonna be harsh about it, but if you're not making the grade, we're gonna have a conversation about it instead of like beating around the bush because you can't do that. And then, I worked with a gal awhile back and she was so passionate, just so passionate and I loved that about her. But she would get so like in a meeting, like fired up and just like, this is how we gotta do it, this is the right way. wouldn't kind of listen to the conversation as a whole to like negotiate. And then we'd get off a call and someone was harsh to her in the meeting, like standing there ground and being transparent. She'd call me like in tears. And I was like, you've got to start to remove the emotion. It's not that big of a thing. Like, let's think about that. And she wrote it down on a sticky note and put it on her like monitor. So she would remember like when she was in meeting, just like, okay, like recenter. Connor (13:26) Yeah. You Yeah. Kasey Wiese (13:39) remove the emotion because once you remove that, becomes more about, you know, tacticality and data and especially in our, in our roles as Ecom. So. Connor (13:48) Yeah. And it's so hard not to get that wrapped up. It becomes dogmatic for a lot of people, what they're doing every day. And they, you know, it's hard to take it personally. It's real skill. It's a real skill. Kasey Wiese (13:55) Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Justin Aronstein (13:58) ⁓ so I bet you going back to the email with the typo, if I had, if I had to guess that email outperformed what it should have. Kasey Wiese (14:01) Hahaha Connor (14:02) you ⁓ Kasey Wiese (14:04) you I don't remember, but you know what the best part was? You want to know what the type of was the T H instead of T H E. And of course, like nobody reads it that way. They read it as the cause our brains are trained to do that. Right. But as you know, was like a smaller brand. were really trying to grow. Like our CEO was like, you know, it was his baby. And like, I just, felt terrible, you know, and nobody caught it. Cause I would send it out to like everybody be like, Connor (14:12) Yeah. Justin Aronstein (14:18) It's horrible, it's horrible. Kasey Wiese (14:34) Please get some other eyes on this. Nobody got it. Justin Aronstein (14:37) I did an email marketing manager for a long time and anytime she had a typo in an email, it was a very well performing email. And it has everyone's eyes on it. Everyone sees the emails that go out. So they're like, they'll look at them. Then they're looking for the problem. But like the ad team, they could have 25 ads and half of them are bad and no one would ever know because no one sees half the ads. Kasey Wiese (14:43) Yeah. Yeah. Looks great. It's the email. Justin Aronstein (15:03) Yeah, like is not under the same microscope. It's like email and the site. Like if there's any problem with the site, like people are up in arms. I it's like you don't even look at our ads. Yeah. So that's awesome. So switching gears a little, do you have any e-commerce hot takes? Kasey Wiese (15:09) Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Do you guys know what's going on over here? Connor (15:15) Yeah. Kasey Wiese (15:22) yeah, personalization. so this is really weird for me. So like, right. We're shifting into this world of AI where it's saying, okay, like, let's use like models and then let's use data to kind of show up, like present to the customer. What we think they need to see. Right. So I think you're kind of shifting from like this old model of personalization where we were using first party data. Connor (15:24) Hmm. Justin Aronstein (15:39) Mm-hmm. Kasey Wiese (15:46) internally on a website to be like, okay, Kasey, you know, you've been to, you know, our website X amount of times, and this is what you looked at. Here's some more lamps. Here's some more couches or whatever, right? To now a little bit more leaning into customers like you and all this stuff. So I feel like the old way was like super creepy and I kind of was never a fan of it. And like, I, I also feel like it's a, it's a term. Justin Aronstein (15:55) Mm-hmm. Kasey Wiese (16:11) dearly loved by ELT, by executive leadership teams. They love that word because it's thrown around so much and they're like, well, how are we personalizing? it's like, well, we don't have the right data to do it right now, or we don't have the right tools. And, maybe it doesn't work for our audience. Right. So having those conversations is tough because it gets thrown around so much. So for me, I kind of tend to shy away from it until you really know it's going to, going to work. And how do you know that? Will you have to test it? Right. But Justin Aronstein (16:15) Yeah. Kasey Wiese (16:37) I find it creepy. It weirds me out. Like great example. have, I don't have kids of my own, but I have nieces and nephews and then I have friends that have babies and whatever. And I'll go like shop for something. And I'm like buying a baby shower gift. And then all of the sudden it's assumed that I need all this like kid. I'm like, no, that's you're, you're wrong. Right? So there's a lot of assumption that's happening. And I'd be super curious, like for that example. what their conversion looks like for exactly that. There's a lot of people that shop solely for like, not themselves, but as gifts and stuff like that, you know? So I think... Justin Aronstein (17:13) 100 % agree and 100%. So the other thing that happens is let's say you personalize experience, what percentage of like the total audience or the total revenue are you actually personalizing? Like what percentage do you actually have that first party data or like what percentage are you actually impacting? So you like make all these efforts, you put all this development time in, like what percentage of audience is being impacted by it? So I really struggle with that as well. ⁓ Kasey Wiese (17:28) Mm-hmm. Yes. Justin Aronstein (17:39) And so, it isn't good. What I am excited about in personalization, like the area that I think we're going to need to be keen on is as the new Facebook algorithm changes for advertising. And you, as it does its targeting on its own based on what creative is performing, how do you actually match that creative that's performing well to the site? Kasey Wiese (17:53) Yes. Justin Aronstein (18:05) intelligently to that language. ⁓ Because you, as the site owner, as the person managing the site, the creative is changing every week. But how do we correctly map what people are responding to as just the amount of creative increases? Kasey Wiese (18:06) Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be, yeah. Yeah, it's going to be interesting for sure as we start to navigate. mean, right now, I don't even have an answer for that, right? Because I think it's really going to mess with the attribution as we start to navigate through all that, right? Justin Aronstein (18:36) Totally, totally. Do you pay attention to the attribution? is that like... Kasey Wiese (18:42) Not right now. have some broken tracking. So now. Yeah, no, I mean, it depends, right? Too. Like, again, like we're to talk about buzzwords and stuff. Like those are other ones that people just get like super hung up on and like, Oh, but what's the attribution? And I'm like, well, do you want to look at first touch or do you want to look at last touch or what do want to look at? You know, so you're kind of. As leaders in like e-comm, we have a lot of interesting conversations where I feel like you're battling buzzwords. Again, back to your hot take question, there's so many of like, but what are we doing this? And personalization again, I think too, there's brands that like, get that pressure, right? Like their director or whomever's running their e-comm, they get that pressure. And so they're like, fine. And then I get an email that's like, dear, and it's like an order number. Because that's all the information they have for me or something, right? Like, that's what it's to be, guys. Connor (19:30) and And it's funny. We have a couple of clients that have had that discussion with us where they're getting pressure from whoever's above them to say like, we need more personalization on there. just, we just need, they just need to hear AI in the meetings. And then they feel like satisfied that they're, they're doing something. and it's, it's crazy. It'll completely derail. think something that's actually doing well, just to, you know, meet these buzzwords. Kasey Wiese (19:51) Yeah, yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Justin Aronstein (19:59) Hey, I know we talk a lot about leadership on this show, but if you want to keep your job in 2026, you're going to have to grow revenue. And one of the best ways to do that is to grow revenue per visitor. That's what we do at Mobile 1st We have guaranteed results to grow RPV through experimentation. Interested? Check us out at Mobile1st.com Justin Aronstein (20:19) Is there a part of the job that you dread? Kasey Wiese (20:21) yeah, black Friday, cyber Monday. it's the worst. Like a sure high dollar great time for the company, but like it's tough. You're balancing a lot of like what the F's going on. Like, why isn't this performing X, Y, Z? Like, and then you're like, do you guys know where we are in the economy right now? Or like customer sentiment is this we've been on sale for 60 % of the year already. And then we offered like the, know, mean, there's just so many variables and it's just like, it's hectic. And right. You have to decide what to prioritize during that time. So then you come out of it and it's like the one saving grace of Black Friday, Cyber Monday is like everybody takes the last two weeks of the year off. you're like, right, we made it. Now I can like dig out of my inbox or whatever. But I also think it's like, you know, for me, so I come from the scheme, snowboard industry, and I've been in e-comm lane since 2006 ish. like really early on in a sense, right. Connor (20:58) Yeah. ⁓ Kasey Wiese (21:12) ⁓ especially in that industry, right? You weren't seeing a lot of manufacturers do stuff. And at the time I did work at a local mom and pop ski and snowboard shop in Lake Tahoe. They had. With four, four locations, one of which was an outlet. We, and we had a warehouse and I was marketing slash e-comm and it was just like really early on in manufacturers at that point. like, well, we're going to let the retailers kind of dip their toes in first. And then they quickly realized they were losing out. And so then the manufacturers were like, okay, we want to party, but they had all these map policies in place that didn't allow for like black and white. So then I was getting pressure again from like, worked for a K-2 sports, which they own K-2 skis snowboards. Like there's 10 brands at the time when I worked there. So I was managing 10 brands for Econ. And then some of them were like, yeah, we're going to participate in a black Friday. And other brands were like, no, but we had a parent company was like, why aren't you? Like what's the deal? we're like, well, that's because that's how we built the industry. And so I went from kind of never dabbling in Black Friday, Cyber Monday to a brand that was kind of borderline outdoor ski snowboard to using that time to like give back to Orvis, which is full on retail. Like we protected some, some of our categories to like blow the doors off. And I was like, what is happening? So. Justin Aronstein (22:28) Mm-hmm. Kasey Wiese (22:34) I just think it's like unnecessary stress for your team often too. Like, it's just like, Oh, now we're going to flip out the site 17 times. So customers thinks it's new because yes, we know that that works, but it's also just like madness. And, and, know, to use a term from the car industry madness under the canvas, really, you know, have tensile. So. Justin Aronstein (22:38) Totally. Yeah. Connor (22:54) Yeah, that's funny. I grew up working in retail and I did the, caught, know, I basically was boots on the ground for Black Friday, you know, growing up. And then I remember I got out of that for a little while and was like, Oh, thank God. I never have to do that again. And then I ended up in tech and now I'm just on the other side of it. Kasey Wiese (23:02) Yeah, brutal. I don't know. Yeah, you're on the other side. Yeah. Justin Aronstein (23:12) My big problem with it is it's like all operational, no strategic. Like it's just like all just like pushing buttons, but there's nothing strategic about it. like push all the buttons. love it. Is there anything that you wish the executive team knew about your job that... Kasey Wiese (23:17) Yeah. Yeah. Push all the buttons. And if that button doesn't work, push it again. Yeah, I said, I'm really fortunate right now. My ELT is like, great. They are fully like, yeah, you're the expert. Like it's really nice to be in a position like that. Like the past has not been that way. So right now it's awesome. They're like, yeah, whatever you say. I'm like, it's like sugarcoating anything. You know, that's not how I am. I, I do consider myself an expert in the area in EECOM. Been in it forever, but obviously continuing to learn. But in my past, it's a lot of like going back to those buzzwords and how do you. Justin Aronstein (23:36) Mm-hmm. That's all. Kasey Wiese (24:01) How do you combat that? You know, I think SEO is a great one, right? There's always that like, it's not returning. it's like, cause it's that way. It's not an instant, like, it's not like you put out an ad on Facebook for two weeks and you see that like, it doesn't work that way. so having to have those conversations, but you know, I've, I've worked for some folks in the past that just, I'm not going say they're micromanagers, but they were. they handcuffed, right? And even though you were hired as the expert, you were never really allowed to kind of use your expertise because even though you brought it to the table, it was still like, no, I don't think that works for our audience. And it's like, well, I have the data about our audience. So can I please, can we try? So there was a lot of like stuffing you down and it's terrible for A, your self esteem, but also just thinking about like, wait, am I in like the wrong industry? Am I? Do I not want to be an e-comm if I can't get to that place where I'm trust as a trusted leader. And so if I go to like my role or this, I had a phenomenal manager, like, like I cannot speak highly enough of her. She basically like was like, you have PTSD from past roles. I'm like, yeah, I totally do. And she's like, she's like, but she's like, use your voice. And so like, had to kind of learn to like, no, I do know what I'm talking about. You know, I do have this. I do get it. because some of my former leaders weren't that way. They were just like, yeah, yeah, sure, Kasey or whatever. I mean, I had one instance that was wild where if I said something, we'd be in a group meeting, like a team meeting, and the CEO would brush me off, but then my male counterpart, I shit you not, would see that happen and he'd say it and it was a great idea. And him and I had conversations about it. And I'm like, Connor (25:42) Yeah. Kasey Wiese (25:42) So it's, think that's really like, let people that you hire to be ex, let them be experts, let them prove themselves. You're going to quickly learn if they are, they aren't. And then the other side of it is like, kill the buzzwords, man. Ask first. And before you, you know, sink your talents in and are like, we got to do this. Like, let's, let's have some conversations about it. So there might kind of two things, two things, not just one. Justin Aronstein (26:05) It makes a lot of sense. Connor (26:07) That's interesting you say that about the experts. It's, think that's one of the things that we find when we hire new people here, especially new growth strategists. We find that we're constantly having to tell them like, you don't need to explain yourself. You know, you're the expert, you go in with it, you demonstrate that you know what you're talking about. And if they need the data, you have it available to share, but you need to kind of, it's always like this kind of process of building up that confidence with junior roles that like, Just remember that we're hiring you because you have the expertise, you have the skills, we trust you, get out there and learn that. And it's interesting just to watch people go through that period of like, I think we should do this because I saw this and I saw that and I saw this to go in like six months from then. And then they're just saying, this is what you need to do and trust me. And it's a phenomenal journey to see people go through. And I think it's great advice that you're saying. Kasey Wiese (26:34) Yeah. Yep. Yep. Justin Aronstein (26:58) So one thing in talking to you, you told us that you're BayMart certified. So what have you learned and what do you apply as an e-comm director? How do you synthesize all that information? BayMart has tons of information. I mean, we subscribe to it it's just incredible. So how do you synthesize all that information to really use it to increase revenue? Kasey Wiese (27:22) Right. So when I was tapped for this role, I came through recruiter. I went to the website and I was like, holy shit. Like my eyes were like, look at this meaty thing I could sink my teeth into here. And I did an entire site audit. And what I did is I said, okay, what are the most glaring UX issues that we have here? Before I even like got into like functionality, like it was really like kind of. Justin Aronstein (27:35) Mm-hmm. Kasey Wiese (27:47) What are, what are the, again, control what you can control and what can I impact today? So there were things that I was like, oh yeah, this, like we could flip a switch on this tomorrow and I bet your conversion rate changes, right? So for me, it's really kind of looking at that top level and being like, okay, the best practice coming out of Baymard is saying this, how can we apply this and what's the lift to get there? Right? Cause I always have to keep that balance too, in terms of like, who am I paying? Is it my time? or I'm going to have to go to the dev team to help them do it. in, and then I was like, ⁓ well they're on Shopify. Great. So then I presented it to the CEO and the chief revenue officer. like, here's like my top level things I would change got in. And I was like, wait a sec. We're barely Shopify 2.0. We don't even use collection pages properly. Like it's not, I couldn't, I was really struggling to make all these changes that I sold them on. Justin Aronstein (28:22) next Kasey Wiese (28:41) But they quickly understood once I got into the back, back, back into everything, they were like, okay, gotcha. And I'm like, so we just really can't. So now it's kind of like, well, how about we just do a redesign and we'll just apply what we know the best practices are and start fresh instead of trying to tweak this website to fit the mold. We're just going to start over. And sometimes that's what you have to do. Sometimes you can only Frankenstein for so long before all of the sudden. You're in the middle of Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and your site breaks and you can't get a hold of your death. Right? Justin Aronstein (29:13) So are you in the middle of redesign right now? Kasey Wiese (29:15) Yes. Yeah. Cause that's what it came down to. I'm like, we're not even to the level we need to be. We're paying to Shopify plus. we can't even benefit in a sense from all the things that they're rolling out and all this stuff. So yeah, we are going through sort of a redesign process internally right now, like defining what that needs to look like. And I, know, we, yeah, it's super just super start. Well, yeah, it's been kind of. Connor (29:16) you Justin Aronstein (29:34) so you're just at the beginning stages. Kasey Wiese (29:40) going on, had some internal changes in Q4 that we had to navigate through. yeah. And it's just kind of like, do you... Sometimes that's just what have to do. You just have to move into a new instance and start fresh and then set it up properly and then maintain it, right? Because that's the other thing is sometimes you get people in that are like, just do it this way. And you're like, well, that's not the right way to do it. So that's what excites me about Baymart is it's a really great way to say no. this is the right way. They have the data that backs this. And I think sometimes for some people, some of their ELT get hung up on. how they think something should be, in reality, you have to push back with the data. And that can be, those are tough conversations to often have. Justin Aronstein (30:21) So taking these best practices in BayMart, are you just implementing them or are you running experiments to see that it actually works? Kasey Wiese (30:27) Both. Yeah, no. ⁓ Well, some I think you should. Like, I think there's some that you're just like, yeah, dude, like that's how it should be. There's others that I even like instinct, like gut reaction is like, like that's not how I shopped, you know? And I, yeah, I get it. I'm an anomaly. spend a lot of time online, like in websites sniff around, you know? And like, I think that's the other thing too. We'll get like a, like an ELT, you know, we'll send you. Ooh. Justin Aronstein (30:30) Okay. Kasey Wiese (30:54) Really love this website. I'm like, yeah, it's pretty, but like, I can't even figure out how to like get to the pants. I just need pants. Connor (30:56) Mm-hmm. Justin Aronstein (31:00) sort of. Connor (31:03) That's funny. Yeah, feel like it's always battling the executive decision whenever they see something they love and they kind of chase that, you know, I think of the analogy here, but yeah, they're like, I saw this on the Target website and it's like that has nothing to do with it. Yeah, we sell digital products. Yeah. Kasey Wiese (31:10) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that's the other side of Liberty is that, we, we sell a really large, heavy item online, right? So how do you inexpensive and like, how do you like get everything the customer needs to know upfront without like any overwhelming them and B being like super like, Hey, yeah, we get that you're spending a lot of money and like, Connor (31:27) Very specific. Kasey Wiese (31:41) You know, these things are made to order in the U S like it's going to take a minute. It's like, don't just go pick them off a shelf. Not in the Amazon warehouse. Connor (31:48) Do you feel like when you were starting at the company and maybe the conversation of experimentation came up, was it something they were already doing or was it something that you had to kind of Institute yourself? Kasey Wiese (32:00) Like A-B testing, sorry, just to clarify, like stuff like that. Yeah. Um, so the, previous, um, director Ecom, I was told that some A-B testing, I'm like, how we don't have a tool. So then I was like super confused and then our CEO said the same thing to me. He's like, wait, what? Well, then he lied to me. I'm like, yeah, well, there's nothing that I can see. So there, no, they're fully on board. Like I actually get asked a lot by the CEO. Like a lot of times he will say to me, Hey, Connor (32:02) Yes, yes, I gave you this. Yeah. Kasey Wiese (32:27) Is this something we can test or will like VP of marketing will push back or P request something and she'll say, I think we should, we should test this. I'm like, yes, please. You know, instead of just like, right, because if you're not testing, you're just throwing spaghetti at the wall and hoping something sticks. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Connor (32:40) Yeah, you're seeing from the head. Yeah. Justin Aronstein (32:41) Darley, what tool are you using? Kasey Wiese (32:44) Nothing right now. I'm just kind of, I, well, what I do is I just manually running stuff. I'll put stuff up for like, you know, I'll say, okay, this is our average traffic, like to this page. I know it's a top, you know, product for us. Let me run it first couple of weeks and see what happens. And then I'll be like, okay, that was insignificant. Like, but until we have like, and I, and I heard that now Shopify with their winner. Justin Aronstein (32:45) Nothing. Uh-huh. Connor (33:02) You Kasey Wiese (33:09) rollout, winter 26 rollout, they have a new tool that they're implementing that's going to allow you to just natively test and schedule stuff. So I was like, whoo. Yeah. Justin Aronstein (33:17) That's really exciting. ⁓ Awesome. kind of wrapping up, is there anything that you're reading or listening to that really excites you that you're looking forward to in 2020? Kasey Wiese (33:29) so I'm like, Baymards might kind of go through, like I love their newsletter. but I think a few other things are like, I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn, like not necessarily looking for a job, obviously, but like, you know, like that's how we connected Justin. And so like, I always appreciate like the insights and I like to read trends, like what are people saying or trending and is it, does it follow the fashion mantra of like things just go around, right? Like, Justin Aronstein (33:41) Is it? Mm-hmm. Kasey Wiese (33:54) Were we doing something 10 years ago that now is a trend again, but because we have better tools, you know, so I like to lean into that. And so I find a lot of great stuff just like on LinkedIn. But I think one book that I like to read time and time again, that it's not even industry related, but I think it's just a great book on understanding and growing within a team and just on is kitchen confidential by Anthony Bourdain. Like it's such a great book. you get, if you peel back the like cocaine and you peel back the Anthony Bourdain a little bit and you, and you get to like, man, we're all just in a kitchen. Just don't cut your fingers off. Right. But you're dealing with like. Owners and leadership and like all this stuff. And he just like balanced it in such an elegant way with his words. It's just like such a great read. read it all at least, you know, twice a year because I'm a nerd, but, Justin Aronstein (34:47) love it. Kasey Wiese (34:47) I just think it speaks sometimes like, yeah, you jump into a book that's like industry related or whatever. But I think if you kind of step back into some of those other tried and true things that you like to read, you kind of can start to piece things together. And then one other thing is not necessarily like a huge conference person or, you know, whatever, but the e-tail conference is super fun. ⁓ I'm not a big network person that way, but I just, every time I go to that, I'm like, that's a good idea. Justin Aronstein (35:07) Mm-hmm. Kasey Wiese (35:13) You know, so I like to just be kind of like a fly on the wall a little bit to some of those. And then also be like, really? You think that's a good? Okay. Interesting. You know. Justin Aronstein (35:22) Do you find the conferences that what people are talking about is relevant or recent? My big concern with all the speakers at conferences is always something two years ago. Kasey Wiese (35:32) Yes, because that was when they had their win, right? That's when they saw their spike. So then now they're an expert. And so like, let's bring them on as a panel, you know, and I'm always like, I know I do find that, but I, that's why I kind of like to go to, I'm like, so going back to trends, was it something we were doing 10 years ago? And now we have better tools to make a baby make it better. But you know, the other thing that conferences kills me is the amount of conversations about personalization. And this is where it happens. It comes from those. Connor (35:36) Hmm. Justin Aronstein (35:57) Hey Kasey Wiese (35:59) and everybody breaks it back. And everybody's like, yeah, we're going to do that. And I'm like, hmm, but maybe, like, can we talk about this first? So ⁓ I do find them intriguing, and I do like to attend them. I always do learn something, for good or bad, right? I always learn something, so. Justin Aronstein (36:01) Uh-huh. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, Kasey. This was a wonderful conversation with a ton of insights and we really appreciate it. Connor (36:21) Absolutely. Kasey Wiese (36:21) deaf. Thank you for having me. It was super fun. And one final note, will say I'm super glad that we're all hair triplets today with our long hair. So guys would fit in with my crew. Connor (36:30) I always go to Justin Aronstein (36:30) You can look at that joke in your